Comments on: Past and Present http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/ Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:03:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: goy http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-302 goy Tue, 19 Jul 2005 13:50:58 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-302 "it took more courage for him not to submit to the demands that he turn over his military record than it did if he had turned it over." Really? How's that? Are you saying that he was standing on principle? If so, which principle? If his record was so clean, all he had to do was release it and "move on". Not doing so cost him the election as much as anything else. Of course demonstrating that Bush was a superior student was hardly a major issue, but it certainly wouldn't have helped Kerry - perhaps that was his fear? I'd go into detail on how his career in the military - starting with his initial enlistment in the unactive reserve - was one long series of opportunism, culminating in an early out to pursue a political position, but it's moot at this point. Nobody really cares about Kerry anymore. "His record has now been released and is clean," According to whom? Glen Johnson of the Associated Press? Michael Kranish of the Boston Globe? Stephen Braun of the Los Angeles Times? Hmmm... you'll have to pardon my skepticism regarding those biased sources, especially in light of the fact that questions remain on whether even they saw the full record. “it took more courage for him not to submit to the demands that he turn over his military record than it did if he had turned it over.”
Really? How’s that? Are you saying that he was standing on principle? If so, which principle? If his record was so clean, all he had to do was release it and “move on”. Not doing so cost him the election as much as anything else. Of course demonstrating that Bush was a superior student was hardly a major issue, but it certainly wouldn’t have helped Kerry – perhaps that was his fear? I’d go into detail on how his career in the military – starting with his initial enlistment in the unactive reserve – was one long series of opportunism, culminating in an early out to pursue a political position, but it’s moot at this point. Nobody really cares about Kerry anymore.

“His record has now been released and is clean,”
According to whom? Glen Johnson of the Associated Press? Michael Kranish of the Boston Globe? Stephen Braun of the Los Angeles Times? Hmmm… you’ll have to pardon my skepticism regarding those biased sources, especially in light of the fact that questions remain on whether even they saw the full record.

]]> By: Greg http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-291 Greg Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:30:52 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-291 First time to even read this blog, but I couldn't pass up replying to entry and the comment about Kerry's recrimination and lacking cojones. I suppose in the Bush post 9-11 world saying that the President has made mistakes that you would correct if you were President amounts to recrimination, but to me that's pretty ridiculous on its face and a sign of how far we have fallen. But that is the dynamic of this administration--allow no criticism and demand no accountability--and it's a sad state of affairs that has led and continues to lead us down a hole. You can complain all you want about lack of leadership, but precisely because of executive ineptitude and political posturing our possibilities for being led to a good outcome in Iraq get slighter by the day. That has been true almost from the day Baghdad fell and we're a couple of years in, so it is no wonder politicians aren't lining up with leadership plans for Iraq. At this point, there's no clear path to a good outcome there. But a good place to start would be to stop making huge screw ups, and when you do screw up, fix it and take someone to account for it. GWB has shown no inclination to either of these ideas that I can tell. There are any number of politicians on both sides of the aisle who could and would do a much better job of leading us in Iraq simply by being honest, but even that would not guarantee a successful outcome at this point. By now the bar for success has been lowered to "Avoid civil war". If you believe the Democratic leadership just wants us to fail in Iraq, you have drunk too much of the administration's polarizing Kool-Aid. We're stuck in Iraq and we all want a good outcome--there's nothing else to hope for. We just want the incredible screw-ups to stop, so we at least have a chance to leave the place better than we found it. As far as Kerry's cojones, whatever that really has to do with any of this, for whatever his reasons were (mistaken, IMHO) it took more courage for him not to submit to the demands that he turn over his military record than it did if he had turned it over. His record has now been released and is clean, not that it would have stopped the ridiculous attacks on him. First time to even read this blog, but I couldn’t pass up replying to entry and the comment about Kerry’s recrimination and lacking cojones. I suppose in the Bush post 9-11 world saying that the President has made mistakes that you would correct if you were President amounts to recrimination, but to me that’s pretty ridiculous on its face and a sign of how far we have fallen. But that is the dynamic of this administration–allow no criticism and demand no accountability–and it’s a sad state of affairs that has led and continues to lead us down a hole. You can complain all you want about lack of leadership, but precisely because of executive ineptitude and political posturing our possibilities for being led to a good outcome in Iraq get slighter by the day. That has been true almost from the day Baghdad fell and we’re a couple of years in, so it is no wonder politicians aren’t lining up with leadership plans for Iraq.

At this point, there’s no clear path to a good outcome there. But a good place to start would be to stop making huge screw ups, and when you do screw up, fix it and take someone to account for it. GWB has shown no inclination to either of these ideas that I can tell. There are any number of politicians on both sides of the aisle who could and would do a much better job of leading us in Iraq simply by being honest, but even that would not guarantee a successful outcome at this point. By now the bar for success has been lowered to “Avoid civil war”.

If you believe the Democratic leadership just wants us to fail in Iraq, you have drunk too much of the administration’s polarizing Kool-Aid. We’re stuck in Iraq and we all want a good outcome–there’s nothing else to hope for. We just want the incredible screw-ups to stop, so we at least have a chance to leave the place better than we found it.

As far as Kerry’s cojones, whatever that really has to do with any of this, for whatever his reasons were (mistaken, IMHO) it took more courage for him not to submit to the demands that he turn over his military record than it did if he had turned it over. His record has now been released and is clean, not that it would have stopped the ridiculous attacks on him.

]]> By: goy http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-283 goy Mon, 18 Jul 2005 23:56:30 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-283 "he would correct the mistakes made by the Bush administration" Um, I think that's pretty much a recrimination against the architects. Anyway, how could he possibly have had the cojones to finish the job when he couldn't even drum up the intestinal fortitude to sign a 180 and come clean on whatever skeletons were or were not lurking in his military records? Just asking. “he would correct the mistakes made by the Bush administration”

Um, I think that’s pretty much a recrimination against the architects.

Anyway, how could he possibly have had the cojones to finish the job when he couldn’t even drum up the intestinal fortitude to sign a 180 and come clean on whatever skeletons were or were not lurking in his military records? Just asking.

]]> By: Kris http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-277 Kris Mon, 18 Jul 2005 21:16:52 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-277 You wrote: "It is possible that many feel as I do, who would have been capable of backing a Democratic candidate in 2004 if one had come forth who clearly and consistently said, “I am more intent on making the best of our position in Iraq today than in wasting my time and the nation’s spirit in recrimination against the architects of the invasion that overthrew Saddam Hussein, may he rot in Hell. Whether we thought that was wise then, whether the passage of time has changed what we knew, is less important than that we are there now, and there is opportunity for all America to finish the job our military men and women have splendidly begun: protecting and helping the Iraqi people as they build a free, prosperous, and democratic state that will be the envy and beacon of the Arab-Islamic world. Then coming home to let them enjoy it.� Um, the Democrat candidate in 2004 DID say essentially that. Kerry said over and over that he would correct the mistakes made by the Bush administration and finish the job. His outlook WAS to complete the job successfully - something he thought Bush wasn't trying to do. What campaign were you watching? You wrote:

“It is possible that many feel as I do, who would have been capable of backing a Democratic candidate in 2004 if one had come forth who clearly and consistently said, “I am more intent on making the best of our position in Iraq today than in wasting my time and the nation’s spirit in recrimination against the architects of the invasion that overthrew Saddam Hussein, may he rot in Hell. Whether we thought that was wise then, whether the passage of time has changed what we knew, is less important than that we are there now, and there is opportunity for all America to finish the job our military men and women have splendidly begun: protecting and helping the Iraqi people as they build a free, prosperous, and democratic state that will be the envy and beacon of the Arab-Islamic world. Then coming home to let them enjoy it.â€Â?

Um, the Democrat candidate in 2004 DID say essentially that. Kerry said over and over that he would correct the mistakes made by the Bush administration and finish the job. His outlook WAS to complete the job successfully – something he thought Bush wasn’t trying to do. What campaign were you watching?

]]> By: Callimachus http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-273 Callimachus Mon, 18 Jul 2005 19:02:33 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-273 Udertoad, you got it right. I've been blessed not to have a TV, so I don't ever get to hear the administration speak in defense of its own good deeds. The few times I've heard it, passing a TV set in a bar or a friend's house, I've felt like Homer Simpson watching Garrison Keillor. I want to smack the side of the set and say, "be eloquent!" Udertoad, you got it right. I’ve been blessed not to have a TV, so I don’t ever get to hear the administration speak in defense of its own good deeds. The few times I’ve heard it, passing a TV set in a bar or a friend’s house, I’ve felt like Homer Simpson watching Garrison Keillor. I want to smack the side of the set and say, “be eloquent!”

]]> By: goy http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-263 goy Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:37:53 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-263 Very well put, Undertoad. I have personally been waiting and waiting for some domestic leadership to emerge from the WH - for some weekly outlines of the good that is being performed over there by an amazing military force. So far we've seen next to squat. And if nothing else, the silence is doing our fighting forces an enormous disservice. Meanwhile, the moonbats frame the national discourse with petty squabbles and unanswered accusations that are repeated endlessly in the MSM with no tangible response. It would be one thing if there were nothing with which to respond, but as even a casual scan of the blogosphere clearly shows - the Truth is Out There. I can only guess that this is a timing ploy of some sort - that the revelations of the Good News, the proof of the Iraq-al Qaeda connection and the Winston Churchill speeches will be timed to open the campaign for 2008. If so, IMHO, that's too long a time to wait and psychological damage is being done in the meantime. If enough people become confused, let alone disheartened due to lack of domestic leadership, if we hear nothing from the administration in response to the incessant hyperbole and outright fallacy being broadcast 24/7 on all wavelengths, we will be faced with the possibility another media-driven failure like Viet Nam. Very well put, Undertoad. I have personally been waiting and waiting for some domestic leadership to emerge from the WH – for some weekly outlines of the good that is being performed over there by an amazing military force. So far we’ve seen next to squat. And if nothing else, the silence is doing our fighting forces an enormous disservice.

Meanwhile, the moonbats frame the national discourse with petty squabbles and unanswered accusations that are repeated endlessly in the MSM with no tangible response. It would be one thing if there were nothing with which to respond, but as even a casual scan of the blogosphere clearly shows – the Truth is Out There.

I can only guess that this is a timing ploy of some sort – that the revelations of the Good News, the proof of the Iraq-al Qaeda connection and the Winston Churchill speeches will be timed to open the campaign for 2008. If so, IMHO, that’s too long a time to wait and psychological damage is being done in the meantime. If enough people become confused, let alone disheartened due to lack of domestic leadership, if we hear nothing from the administration in response to the incessant hyperbole and outright fallacy being broadcast 24/7 on all wavelengths, we will be faced with the possibility another media-driven failure like Viet Nam.

]]> By: Undertoad http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-262 Undertoad Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:50:36 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-262 The punishable fault of the Bush administration is certainly not that they made the decision to go in, and not that there were mistakes made in carrying it out. The really, really horrible fault of the Bush administration is that there was no Churchill to make that speech, which meant that Americans lose their resolve and their attention span. Years and years of a murky, long, drawn-out war, with an enemy we don't understand, for reasons we don't understand? That's a hard sell. The administration is cold to the media and treats it as the enemy, practically Nixon-style. McClelland is weak. Bush himself has not really had a finger on it since Karen Hughes left. His communication skills appear to be on the decline. And the administration seems content, at this point, to only want to convince 51% of the population, and to hell with the rest. Imagine this war with Reagan's communication abilities. Or even Clinton's ability to translate things into emotion. How much better it would be. I think even Kerry would have been better, despite his tendency to dawdle on and on. He became much, much sharper over the course of the campaign which suggested that he could be coaxed out of Boring Senator mode and into Great Communicator mode. The punishable fault of the Bush administration is certainly not that they made the decision to go in, and not that there were mistakes made in carrying it out. The really, really horrible fault of the Bush administration is that there was no Churchill to make that speech, which meant that Americans lose their resolve and their attention span.

Years and years of a murky, long, drawn-out war, with an enemy we don’t understand, for reasons we don’t understand? That’s a hard sell.

The administration is cold to the media and treats it as the enemy, practically Nixon-style. McClelland is weak. Bush himself has not really had a finger on it since Karen Hughes left. His communication skills appear to be on the decline. And the administration seems content, at this point, to only want to convince 51% of the population, and to hell with the rest.

Imagine this war with Reagan’s communication abilities. Or even Clinton’s ability to translate things into emotion. How much better it would be. I think even Kerry would have been better, despite his tendency to dawdle on and on. He became much, much sharper over the course of the campaign which suggested that he could be coaxed out of Boring Senator mode and into Great Communicator mode.

]]> By: kreiz http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-261 kreiz Mon, 18 Jul 2005 12:21:18 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-261 Exactly. As a pre-war Colin Powell man, I had reached the reluctant conclusion that Bush 41's decision not to invade was correct becaase 1) too much civil war potential due to religious conflicts and 2) the fear of an eventual alliance between Tehran & Baghdad if the Sunnis lost power. However, once the decision to invade Iraq was made, it became in our collective interest to win the war. Second-guessing the Administration's original decision is counterproductive and out of focus. A very wise analysis, Callimachus- no surprise there. Exactly. As a pre-war Colin Powell man, I had reached the reluctant conclusion that Bush 41′s decision not to invade was correct becaase 1) too much civil war potential due to religious conflicts and 2) the fear of an eventual alliance between Tehran & Baghdad if the Sunnis lost power. However, once the decision to invade Iraq was made, it became in our collective interest to win the war. Second-guessing the Administration’s original decision is counterproductive and out of focus. A very wise analysis, Callimachus- no surprise there.

]]> By: Justin Gardner http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/comment-page-1/#comment-252 Justin Gardner Mon, 18 Jul 2005 06:45:44 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2005/07/18/past-and-present/#comment-252 The task at hand IS the most important objective and I hope all of us remember that. We can whine and debate, but what is done is done and nobody can change that. Of course, some think the best objective is bringing our soldiers home and some thing it's making sure we win the war. But whatever outcome you want, I believe that the spread of democracy (a truly evolutionary approach to fairness, responsibility and tolerance) is worth fighting for. Great post! The task at hand IS the most important objective and I hope all of us remember that. We can whine and debate, but what is done is done and nobody can change that. Of course, some think the best objective is bringing our soldiers home and some thing it’s making sure we win the war.

But whatever outcome you want, I believe that the spread of democracy (a truly evolutionary approach to fairness, responsibility and tolerance) is worth fighting for.

Great post!

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