We don’t know what works best in the mid term.

We may yet see a peaceful Iraq(s?) emerge in the coming years, in spite of that goal being undermined by the determination to forge democracy (as others here have already pointed out). Long before there were Islamic supremacists vs. infidels, there was “perfect” vs. “good enough” – the oldest rivalry of them all. That rivalry has played itself out once again in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Well, what about the people who don’t hate Bush, but still think it’s a failure? Condemning the left for not liking this president’s policies doesn’t prove your point. And starting off the comment by quoting PowerLine to back up an assertion that Iraq isn’t a failure doesn’t really help your cause.

Listen, my problem is that it feels like we’re just abandoning these people, and I think that’s wrong. We shouldn’t be pulling the troops out, we should be adding more. I believe more boots on the ground would make a difference, but nobody is talking about the possibility because it would be hugely unpopular politically.

And as far as the Vietnam comment at the end, well…I’ll simply ask that you don’t put your head in the sand. We have to be honest about our actions and our history, otherwise our credibility will be destroyed.

One last thought.

Iraq’s liberated future is in the hands of Iraqis. And, as is so often the case, the liberals who want lots of human rights for women, for instance, are unwilling to kill their enemies to get those rights. The enemies of human rights seem to have no such compunctions. Very asymetrical.

I don’t think killing people to get more rights for women is something that most liberals would agree with, no. However, there are many different ways to achieve that goal. War is not the only answer and you’re treating it as such here.

And by the way, it’s not our duty as a nation to secure the human rights of every single person in this world. It’s our duty to protect our own people and our own interests. And personally, I’d rather be securing our borders than trying to get more rights for Iraqi women.

“Islamic” was taken out of the title of The Iraq Republic according to the BBC, more on this as it is actually passed, or not.

Iraq’s liberated future is in the hands of Iraqis. And, as is so often the case, the liberals who want lots of human rights for women, for instance, are unwilling to kill their enemies to get those rights. The enemies of human rights seem to have no such compunctions. Very asymetrical.

The US Vietnam mess was, to a large extent, because in 1956 the US did NOT accept a Communist general winning a free and fair election; more anti-communist than pro-democracy.

If democratic Iraq becomes theocratic Iraq, is that a failure? The Bush-haters will say yes; but it’s always been a failure for them.

If Iraq splits peacefully, that will not be a failure. If there’s a civil war for a split, which the Sunnis seem to be threatening, it will be a failure.

But Iraq will lose, not America. (Just as Vietnam lost, not America.)

Its easy to refect on the past, but what’s the solution?

Jon Wright adds that you can always withdraw from the world and become totally insular and start again.

The problem with the West is that we are all too eager to argue amongst ourselves. We are getting too soft and our enemies know that, they are gaining strength from it.

I mean why did we invade Iraq in the first place? Some say it was oil, others say it was a knee jerk reaction after 9/11. Others say a war boosts the US economy. If anybody really thought we could convert these people then they are now getting a wake up call.

The thing is we can’t just walk away now. Pulling out the troops will just hand over Iraq to Iran and Israel will intervene anyway. They will not sit back and let Iran build the bomb. If we leave them all to get on with it what do you think will happen? Do you honestly think they will leave you alone. For sure you will get a respite but for how long and how many more teeth do you think the enemy will have by then. Israel will be gone, will you stand back and watch them become extinct? How will that make you feel? Rightly or wrongly we created Israel and gave them hope. But they are not welcome there.

Until every Westerner, every Christian, Jew, Buddhist, Seikh and none believer is out of the middle east, they will not rest. They have said it, we have heard them say it, how much more proof does the world need until they take it in. 911 came before Iraq and Afghanistan, and its just another excuse to the enemies of the West to continue their quest for world domination.

This is not about politics, this is about ideology. In the UK we have let the liberal classes convince us to let people into our country, supposedly fleeing persecution. We have welcomed them, housed and fed them, we have even changed our laws at the expense of our own people and what has happened, they throw it back at us and bombed us. Deep down they have a belief that their way of life is superior and purer than ours. They just don’t integrate well and don’t want to. It has been like this for thousands of years, its not a new thing. These people glorify in death.

Iraq was not as hardline as Iran and in hindsight should have been left alone and probably acted as a bridge between Israel and Iran. Saddam Hussain believed in nothing but his own power, he kept most of these fanatics in touch. Unlike the Russians and the Chinese, the Islamist will never embrace democracy because it does not go hand in hand with its core beliefs.

Yes we have made mistakes and Iraq should never have kicked off but it did and thats history now. But what it has shown us is how motivated our enemies are when we get just a little too close to what is going on. A bit like a hornets nest really.

The Atom bomb in their hands levels the game a little and its the end of our ways for sure. We may have made up the WMD as an excuse to steal the oil and gain a new ally in the middle east, and that may just happen if we stay and don’t let Iran bully us out. Iran building the bomb is real and not fantasy. If you believe once they have it, they will not used it then that’s your choice. Recent events like the be-headings, 911 and the London bombings should be evidence enough of how motivated and brutal they are. Were as we have shown responsiblity and a maturity whilst in possession of the bomb, the same can be said of the Russians, the Chinese and the North Koreans for that matter. Why? Because their way of life can integrate with ours. During the cold war the Russians clearly loved their children enough to want peace, the Iranians arm theirs and tell them to go out and kill.

The question I would ask of the US is has it the stomach to finish what it started? Your enemies don’t believe you have and will press on. And reading these forums convices me more and more of that. Forget all the politics and put it to one side for a moment and think how lucky you are to have the freedom to build this website and argue amongst your fellow citizens in a peaceful and democratic way.