Just to clarify.

Justin, I appreciate your comments though, I don’t find them to be somewhat elitist.

Re: BB’s comment: I think Barbara Bush’s comments were ignorant, classist, elitist, etc. I am always saddened by how quickly certain facets of our society are able and so willing to justify away ignorant behavior. It is unacceptable and furthermore, disgusting for a woman in her position and social status to be that ill-bread… totally classless.
Her ignorance is no better or worse than those we would label as “trailer trash.” I think even the most “unread” person would have enough sense to know that statement is appalling. However, her ignorance does indeed confirm the lack of compassion and all-out gnorance often demonstrated by her son. Behavior is taught and unfortunately….

This disaster has been a disaster in every sense of the word. This in nothing less than a tragedy. We were able to offer help to those victimized by a Tsunami half way across the world quicker than those in our own backyard. Awful. We will never know where this debacle really began, however, my hope is that IF there was any “willful indifference” on any one person’s part that contributed to the unnecessary loss of life that their conscience will eventually haunt them for life.

Justin, thanks for having this outlet for us to converse. Just remember the beauty of Freedom of Speech is that I don’t have to agree with you to respect your right to speak “whatever.” I’m sure you know that free speech is extended to both sides of the political fence. That seems to get lost nowadays. Again, Thanks for the chat. Continue to attempt to respect a view that is not yours.

We need to continue to pray for the victims and for the Red Cross that they maintain good stewardardship of the money being entrusted to them.

I don’t tend to be a person that judges. In reading all these posts, those on other pages, and the responses I’ve heard in the media and from friends and family about both Mrs. Bush’s comments, and the hurricane aftermath in general, I’ve come across quite a few things that I didn’t agree with. No matter how strongly I felt about my own opinions, or how much I disagreed with someone else’s, my immediate response has almost always been “that’s interesting, let me think about that more….” (or something along those lines). I love reading these blogs, and talking to friends because hearing other’s perspectives challenges me to think more about my own, and why I think, feel, and value what I do. Sometimes my original opinion doesn’t change, sometimes it does after considering someone else’s. But in the end, even after heated arguments, I enjoy knowing a little more about someone else’s perspective and being challenged about my own. I heard Mrs. Bush’s comment, and was offended by it. I admittedly read into it something that only she can say for sure she meant. Maybe she had something in mind entirely with her comment, and used a poor choice of words. That’s why I chose to respond how I did - I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, and find a way of interpreting it in a way that didn’t offend me so strongly.

I had to say that, Super Girl, b/c yours was the first comment I’ve seen in a while that made me think “I blatantly don’t agree, and I’m not really interested in trying to.”

I think it’s unfortunate that your reaction to these posts is to call us selfish. I think it’s sad that what you seem to see is a group of people competing to be the one that relates the most to the victims, the one that’s been through the most, and the one that has the best/most accurate/most reasonable response - or, as you phrased it: “in the best position to comment.â€Â? I don’t want want to speak for anyone else, but I’m sure others will agree - that’s not why we’re speaking out. I feel strongly about what people on the Golf Coast are going through because they are people (and animals) that are suffering. Not because they’re poor like I have been, because they’re not white like I’m not, because they’re going through a difficult time like I have too. But because they are humans (and, again, animals) that are in pain. And no one deserves to suffer like they are.

If this happened in Beverly Hills, I wouldn’t feel any more or less strongly about what’s happening than I do now. If it happened to nothing but white, rich people I wouldn’t care any less than I do, even though I may not “relate” as much, being someone lower-middle class and biracial. If it happened to someone in another country - it doesn’t matter. People are suffering, and it hurts me. I mention what I’ve been through, because it’s part of what makes me think what I do. I’ve survived some tough s**t. It doesn’t make me any more “qualified” to talk about pain than someone who’s had it easy. But I talk about my experiences because it gives me perspective - I was poor, and miserable at times because of it. I can’t imagine how these people feel who have absolutely nothing, and no way of getting it back. And I’m not pretending to understand.

You said “We are all a bunch of whiners and are spoiled in our own right” … speak for yourself. Yes, I’m spoiled. I have food on my plate, and a roof over my head, and I’m grateful for it. I don’t have much more than that, but damn, I appreciate it, and donate as much as I can to those who can use my money, possessions, or time whenever I can. When I can do more, I do. But the fact that I speak my mind, and challenge others who I disagree with in order to challenge myself at the same time - it’s not whining. The closest thing to whining I’ve read so far on this page is your post, complaining about people complaining. Either be grateful to live in a time and country that different people are free to express different opinions, or move on. But don’t judge those of us that do.

However…

Lets just hope and pray that while we are concentrating on Katrina victims and survivors (not refugees) Bush’s terrorist buddies don’t decide to attack!

Bush’s terrorist buddies? What’s wrong with you?

Jeez….

My point is this: there are ignoratnt people everywhere (like the Bush family) but is it really worth wasting time on disucssing how dumb their comments are - if so just talking about our President’s past comments alone…we’d never get anything done! We need to stop relying on our government and rely on our faith and human nature. we need to stop arguing and unite - donate, volunteer, pray - anything but sit around and whine. That is one thing that ALL Americans have in common (poor up to the wealthy) we are all a bunch of whiners and are spoiled in our own right.

Lets just hope and pray that while we are concentrating on Katrina victims and survivors (not refugees) Bush’s terrorist buddies don’t decide to attack!

First, I am admittedly very biased against anything having to do with the Bush family. I admit and own that. That being said, it embarrasses me to read/hear things like this being said from such a huge political figure. I’ve found the overall reaction to this hurricane embarrassing, honestly. But before I get too distracted, let me get back to the point..

I’ve been thinking about what she said a lot, and how I could possibly interpret that quote in a way that I wasn’t offeded. And here’s what i came up with….

I do not doubt for a second that there are some hurricane victims that may be able to (eventually) benefit from this. For most, I think it will come down to what they are able to make out of it…. Now by no means do these people deserve what’s happening to them. No one deserves the stress of worrying about fixing damaged property, cars, etc - let alone trying to start over from nothing. However, this idealistic part of me recognizes that some people may actually be able to turn the “lemons into lemonade.” There are some that, assuming of course the gov’t will actually provide housing, job training, support, etc (hey, I told you I’m being idealistic) may eventually be able to live a quality of life better than what they originally had. Some for whom this may be their only opportunity to access educational or vocational resources they never had before. Some who may eventually feel that moving to another area/city/state was one of the best moves they made (or rather had made for them), as there are more opportunites there than were at home. However, I think these people are going to be the exception, not the norm. I also feel pretty strongly that it shouldn’t take a natural disaster for those services and resources to be made available to them. I work in social services now with young people, and see how many of them want to stay straight, out of trouble, go to school, get a job, etc - but have the odds stacked against them because they can’t afford programs, or are disqualified from program after program because the have a criminal history, kids, evictions, can’t read, or have some sort or disability. It kills me every time I have to counsel a kid who’s depressed and frustrated because he wants to get his stuff together and can’t open any doors for himself to do so.

I can’t help but think what I would do if something like that happened to me. I’m fortunate - I have a degree, a lot of experience in different fields, I’m young… if I lost my job, my home, I know I have friends that could take me in, and have skills that could get me something else in just about any city I move to. I can’t imagine what I would do if I had kids, no education or job skills, no insurance, no bank account, and now no home, job, or even city to call home. These people deserve better. But by “these people,” I most certainly am not only referring to the “underprivileged.” If faced with a similiar situation, knowing just how stubborn I can be, and how many little things I’d love to be able to get away from, or start over with, I know that I could (again, eventually) get myself to a better place than I’m at right now. I’ve done it before - I got fed up with my situation, found a new city, a field I always wanted to get in. Didn’t know a soul before I got there, and never stepped foot in the area before I moved in. And I made it. Yes, I had money to move with (but trust me, not much. I PB&J’d it for months until I could afford anything but rent), and was able to bring the things that meant something to me with me. And it was HARD for a long time to stay motivated and sane. But I made it, and I’m better off because of it.

(One final thought, just popped into my head - maybe Mrs. Bush was referring to all the people who are going to take advantage of this huge opportunity to change their identities, steal someone else’s, or abandon family, responsibilities, etc that they’ve never been able to before. I think we all know that there are some out there that are going to do it - there are already all these crackdowns on fake charities stealing donations and money. This is, after all, “working well for them!” Think that’s what she meant?)

And Justin, I will note that you keep refering to “these people� or “those people�. You’ve lived it, but you don’t seem to accept that you were one of them.

My explantion of my background demonstrated where I’ve come from. How is that not accepting I was one of them? Also, I’m not hovering right above the poverty line anymore, so I’m not one of them anymore. Those two things are pretty clear in my family’s history.

Third, the reason I asked about your backgrounds (implicitly, at that) is because your comments sounded all too familiar in tone: middle-class kids all grown up trying to be morally superior to the true silver-spooners. You know, working with the poor so they can feel connectd to “the people�. (I guess it’s “being down with the peeps� these days.) Doing their part to “give back� to the community. As someone who grew up poor, that type of condescension annoys me to no end, aspecially sense those that do it don’t *realize* they’re doing it!

See, that’s a personal annoyance and has NOTHING to do with whether or not Bush’s comments were actually “clued in.” Your personal feelings about middle class kids doesn’t make their opinions invalid. And just because they grew up in a certain locale and now decry poverty, doesn’t mean they don’t understand it. More on this in a second.

So, Meredith’s, and Justin’s, and Barbara Bush’s, and my opinions all hold the same value: zero.

Wrong. They do have value. Just because you aren’t of a specific group doesn’t mean you can’t have a valid point. Does that mean most of the war supporter’s opinions, who have never been in a war or in the military, have no value? Of course not.

Put another way, if Barbara doesn’t understand that poor people value their forme lives more than food and shelter in a sports stadium, then I truly feel sorry for her. This woman has been insulated from the world’s ugliness for decades and it shows in her comments.

Thanks for all the comments everybody. I’m going to move on now to more important topics.

Poor, or not poor, the people at the Astrodome have lost everything. And no matter how little that might be to some people, that means something.

The loss of personal mementos alone is heart-breaking. How many would be willing to trade all of their personal mementos for an improved living standard? Not many, I would think.

I always feel like I’m still a step away from being back where I started. It’s a paranoia I’ll probably never shake no matter how successful I am or will yet become.

Yes, exactly. Also, I have never shaken the feeling that I don’t really belong where I find myself now. (Note the word is belong, not deserve. Deserve’s got nothing to do with it, as the man said.) I can’t believe out of everyone I knew growing up that I’m the one who became the corporate wonk. It just doesn’t seem right, and the environment still feels alien.

Indeed, who is the ‘morally superior’ in their viewpoint? If you lived it or if you didn’t, you’re going to have your own perspective.

I did grow up ‘working-class’ dirt poor. Living in the Projects, having to stay with grandparents between apartments at times, and my mom (who raised us mostly as a single parent before remarrying) finally achieving some level of ‘working class’ before going off on my own.

Even now, as an adult, and being in the position to help my family, support myself, and live quite well…I always feel like I’m still a step away from being back where I started. It’s a paranoia I’ll probably never shake no matter how successful I am or will yet become.

Comments like what Barbara Bush made? Insensitive is putting it mildly. Poor, or not poor, the people at the Astrodome have lost everything. And no matter how little that might be to some people, that means something. But let’s face it, the ’super-rich’ are out of touch. They can work in soup kitchens all day long, but at the end of the night? You’re still coming home to a comfortable bed, a full refrigerator, and no worries about if you’re going to have food, shelter, or clothing tomorrow.

It’s wonderful to help people and gives perspective, but it shouldn’t be mistaken for understanding or feeling those struggles. Obviously Barbara needs to remember that.

You are a poor representation of a former First Lady.
May God Bless You.

First, I did not defend Barbara Bush’s comment. It was so self-evidently a Marie Antoinette moment that I don’t see why anyone would. What I asked were specific questions about the views the two of you were espousing.

(And Justin, if you are going to go on about someone else’s cluelessness, you should certainly expect someone to question whether or not *you* are clued in.)

Second, there is a distinction between being working-class and being working-class poor. One has some measure of financial safety and resiliency, and the other does not.

Third, the reason I asked about your backgrounds (implicitly, at that) is because your comments sounded all too familiar in tone: middle-class kids all grown up trying to be morally superior to the true silver-spooners. You know, working with the poor so they can feel connectd to “the people”. (I guess it’s “being down with the peeps” these days.) Doing their part to “give back” to the community. As someone who grew up poor, that type of condescension annoys me to no end, aspecially sense those that do it don’t *realize* they’re doing it!

As it turns out, Justin lived the life. I still doubt, based on what he’s written elsewhere, that he grew up in a rough neighborhood, but being strapped around people who aren’t has its own miseries. And Justin, I will note that you keep refering to “these people” or “those people”. You’ve lived it, but you don’t seem to accept that you were one of them.

Since I’ve rambled on a bit, I may as well ramble some more.

Just to be clear, yes, Meredith, I’ve walked in the shoes of “those people”. Grew up in them, in fact. What I want to know is, does that grant me the “true” perspective? Or am I too close to it to see the big picture? In short, am I granted some kind of moral superiority or enhanced perspective because I grew up poor? Since I did and you didn’t, does my opinion have more worth than yours?

(Answers: No. Maybe. No and yes. No, because one person’s opinions are as worthless as another’s. That last one is self-evidently true, since there are so many opions floating about. Anything in that great a supply can’t be worth much. So, Meredith’s, and Justin’s, and Barbara Bush’s, and my opinions all hold the same value: zero.)

[Truth in advertising moment: I grew up "working-class poor" in a run-down suburb. The kind of family that's a couple of missed paychecks from being out on the street. (Growing up, we came much closer to that happening on a few occasions than I realized. Ah, the myopia of youth! Remember kids, it's better to think your parents are just extremely cheap than to realize you belong to the underclass!) We would have had no one to fall back on, so I don't know what would have happened if.... But there were and are people in much worse conditions.]

TC

Justin Gardner Says:

September 6th, 2005 at 11:16 am
I don’t think you can judge GW by what his mother says. That certainly wasn’t the point of the post.

And Jim, stop throwing salvos around like the “bitch� comment. It adds nothing to the conversation. I haven’t been able to read all of your comments, but in the future, don’t use that kind of language on this site. It’s not welcome or appreciated, and it cheapens your credibility here.

First of all, as to the present, they don’t seem better off living in a arena with thousands of others. They seem to have lost just to name a few: their comforts of home, family, friends, normalcy, and privacy.

Second of all, as to their future, how can we say to them that their life is going to be much better now that we have taken them out of that city? They grew up in that town…their history, life and heart belongs to that city. In addition, will we be offering high paying jobs to them so that they can have a better life. Highly unlikely!!! They will probably end up working in the fields they worked before. That’s what they are trained for. Let’s be honest….is there even jobs in Houston or wherever they get placed available for them.

“And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this � this [she chuckles slightly] is working very well for them.�

TSK TSK!!!!! As I shrug my head back and forth….her lightness about their hardships past, present and future is disheartening.

Make your point and make it well.

Otherwise, don’t comment.

I have not personally walked a mile in any of those shoes, but like Justin, I have worked with the poor for years.

I used to have certain attitudes and assumptions about the poor, but guess what? I was wrong. And, I have learned that there are many people in this country that do make incorrect assumptions about the poor. Yes, I think they are completely incorrect. Correct to me means something that is true, is a fact. It is NOT a fact that those underprivileged people are better off now than they were prior to the hurricane. Maybe, by some stroke of luck or hard work, a few people may end up finding a solution that puts them in a better position, but in general, that was a ridiculous statement.

I obviously do not think Mrs. Bush has any idea what the working poor in this country go through. I will not be rude enough to question your personal knowledge of such a subject, but I’m wondering why you would see the need to defend her statement by attacking Justin’s and my credibility on this issue.

Fair enough.

I understand (and have an appreciation) because for a long time my family hovered on the brink right after a fire destroyed the family business. See, the insurance company didn’t insure us with the “right” policy, so we had to settle about 100 individual lawsuits with people who wanted compensation for the property they lost in our care. And we made good. But it hurt.

So after that my family fell on hard times. My mom worked two jobs (sometimes three) and we barely scraped by. She drove a Ford Festiva until the wheels fell off. My grandparents helped out some and my dad tried his best. Thankfully the family’s fortunes have gotten slightly better because of circumstances that I don’t want to get into here.

But even if none of that had happened, I also understand because I’ve given back, cooked food, given clothing, mentored kids, cleaned up neighborhoods, etc. You can understand how these people feel if you talk to them and share stories. Sitting down with dozens of people is all it takes. Hearing the pain they go through gives one insight.

And, in fact, my mom is volunteering right now in Austin, TX. This is from an IM conversation I had with her just yesterday:

..worked in the shelter set up at the convention center all weekend for the evacuees from new orleans…unbelievable!!!

do you know any women with size 10 feet?

i need shoes for some women i have befriended with size 10 feet…they can’t find any

so,ask around,if you can…and donate to the red cross…they are doing incredible things for the people down here…and walmart donated not only bedding but 23 million and cabelas donated 3/4 of the cots at the convention center…i think there are between 4000 and 5000 people down there now…

just imagine bartle hall with row upon row upon row of cots

And to answer you question about the “correct” view about the poor, there really is no “correct” view and that’s the wrong question to be asking. I would assert that we should ask what is the “compassionate” view of the poor.

Personally, I don’t think it’s compassionate to suggest that a flood that wiped away everything they had is working out very well for them. But that’s just me. I think, to make a statment like that, you have to be out of touch and not understand what those people go through.

Disagree if you must. That’s my stance.

“Until you’ve walked a mile in another’s shoes…. “

Just out of curiousity, how can I be sure that you have “any appreciation for what the working poor goes through in our country”?

Similarly to Meredith,

What is the *correct* view to have about the poor in this country?

I seriously doubt that this comment indicates a malicious intent. It is far more likely that she didn’t even realize that it was offensive, meaning that, with all due respect to the former first lady, she is ignorant rather than mean. Usually (but not always) people will try to cover up malicious feelings, but they will say things that they believe other people will agree with, or things that they do not believe to be controversial.

Lastly, I don’t think it’s a stretch to suggest that Barb’s comment leads to an inference that George might feel the same way. Of course not all people agree with what their parents say, but it is quite common for children to grow up with the same prejudices and beliefs that their parents had because they are surrounded by certain ideas that are communicated both overtly and subliminally. This, I would assume, is how prejudice is alive and well today. Hopefully, this gets better with each generation, provided that there is some educational intervention.

And Jim, stop throwing salvos around like the “bitch” comment. It adds nothing to the conversation. I haven’t been able to read all of your comments, but in the future, don’t use that kind of language on this site. It’s not welcome or appreciated, and it cheapens your credibility here.

“Why should we hear about body bags and deaths,” Barbara Bush said on ABC’s “Good Morning America” on March 18, 2003. “Oh, I mean, it’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?”

It makes me wonder; if this is how out of touch dubya’s mother is, how out of touch might dubya himself be? At any rate, I think Barbara Bush is actually an unpleasant old bitch for some of the things she says and if she had any good sense, she would keep her thoughts to herself or at least behind closed doors.