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	<title>Comments on: Iraq Justification Revisited</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: BrianOfAtlanta</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-3803</link>
		<dc:creator>BrianOfAtlanta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 17:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=1343#comment-3803</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see the Vietnam analogy, other than the two points Cal mentioned. The South Vietnamese government was oppresive and unpopular. The vast majority of Iraqis support their government. South Vietnam itself had no strong national identity. Iraq has a strong national self image. Even though the conflict has transformed into something our president and military didn&#039;t forsee, we seem to have stumbled upon a winning strategy against Al-Qaeda. The enemy is hemoraging public support in the Arab world. 

I give Bush no credit for this, other than for being too bull-headed to back down from a fight - any fight. A part of me still wonders if he saw Iraq as a blotch on the Bush family honor and if that played a role in starting the war. I didn&#039;t see any reason for us to get involved in Iraq, but it has turned out much better than I had expected. We&#039;re winning in Iraq and in the Arab world in general. If Iraq can be compared to Vietnam, it&#039;s Al-Qaeda&#039;s Vietnam, not ours. They&#039;re the ones losing the war of public opinion. The US can afford to lose the support of the Arab street (what else is new?). Al-Qaeda can&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see the Vietnam analogy, other than the two points Cal mentioned. The South Vietnamese government was oppresive and unpopular. The vast majority of Iraqis support their government. South Vietnam itself had no strong national identity. Iraq has a strong national self image. Even though the conflict has transformed into something our president and military didn&#8217;t forsee, we seem to have stumbled upon a winning strategy against Al-Qaeda. The enemy is hemoraging public support in the Arab world. </p>
<p>I give Bush no credit for this, other than for being too bull-headed to back down from a fight &#8211; any fight. A part of me still wonders if he saw Iraq as a blotch on the Bush family honor and if that played a role in starting the war. I didn&#8217;t see any reason for us to get involved in Iraq, but it has turned out much better than I had expected. We&#8217;re winning in Iraq and in the Arab world in general. If Iraq can be compared to Vietnam, it&#8217;s Al-Qaeda&#8217;s Vietnam, not ours. They&#8217;re the ones losing the war of public opinion. The US can afford to lose the support of the Arab street (what else is new?). Al-Qaeda can&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-3790</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 13:21:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=1343#comment-3790</guid>
		<description>&quot;If the far more rational government in Tehran is crossing the Shia-Sunni divide to treat with al Qaeda, it is very likely that Saddam would have had we not turned our attention to Iraq so quickly after the elimination of the Taliban.&quot;

Man, talk about non-sequitors. And poor arguments. Even if the analogy made the slightest bit of sense - which it doesn&#039;t on its own terms - one is in pretty poor shape when one&#039;s argument becomes &quot;if we hadn&#039;t attacked Iraq, Saddam might have started to aid Al-Qaeda.&quot; Yes, that&#039;s a &lt;i&gt;great&lt;/i&gt; reason for treating Iraq as an &lt;i&gt;imminent threat&lt;/i&gt; and throwing most of your military resources at it.

Are you seriously endorsing this as deep thinking on the War on Terror?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the far more rational government in Tehran is crossing the Shia-Sunni divide to treat with al Qaeda, it is very likely that Saddam would have had we not turned our attention to Iraq so quickly after the elimination of the Taliban.&#8221;</p>
<p>Man, talk about non-sequitors. And poor arguments. Even if the analogy made the slightest bit of sense &#8211; which it doesn&#8217;t on its own terms &#8211; one is in pretty poor shape when one&#8217;s argument becomes &#8220;if we hadn&#8217;t attacked Iraq, Saddam might have started to aid Al-Qaeda.&#8221; Yes, that&#8217;s a <i>great</i> reason for treating Iraq as an <i>imminent threat</i> and throwing most of your military resources at it.</p>
<p>Are you seriously endorsing this as deep thinking on the War on Terror?</p>
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		<title>By: michael reynolds</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-3788</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 11:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=1343#comment-3788</guid>
		<description>I have many of those same feelings.  I&#039;m an Army brat, my father a retired officer.  But in this case I think criticism is necessary because something needs to be done or we may well lose.  And at risk of quoting myself, Iraq has all of Vietnam&#039;s quagmire potential and none of its strategic irrelevance.  If we lose, this will be a disaster for us.

As you know, Lincoln was subjected to awful criticism throughout the war, including all sorts of Congressional meddling.  I&#039;m sure that made things difficult.  On the other hand we finally got Grant and Sherman and Sheridan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have many of those same feelings.  I&#8217;m an Army brat, my father a retired officer.  But in this case I think criticism is necessary because something needs to be done or we may well lose.  And at risk of quoting myself, Iraq has all of Vietnam&#8217;s quagmire potential and none of its strategic irrelevance.  If we lose, this will be a disaster for us.</p>
<p>As you know, Lincoln was subjected to awful criticism throughout the war, including all sorts of Congressional meddling.  I&#8217;m sure that made things difficult.  On the other hand we finally got Grant and Sherman and Sheridan.</p>
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		<title>By: Callimachus</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-3785</link>
		<dc:creator>Callimachus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=1343#comment-3785</guid>
		<description>Whether our military masters counter-insurgency and urban warfare now, or later, it&#039;s going to have to be done. Whether they get it in Iraq or the next place, they&#039;re going to have to learn. The more battalion-leader-level experience we have at this, the better the chances of developing a working model. It seems we&#039;re pretty close to it, in my opinion, based on what I read about Fallujah and Najaf.

That set-piece tank battle on open European plains, the replay of Kursk, is looking more and more remote every day. Might as well clear that playbook off the shelf.

None of that, for better or worse, brings Iraq truly closer to stability, of course. But I remain confident that that country has a critical mass of people who are determined enough to make it work to, well, make it work.

Michael, if it was just you and I and a box of beers, I&#039;m sure we&#039;d agree on most things. But I have an emotional notion that while the war is still on, the criticism of the chieftain is not as important as persisting in the fight. I am not trying to say my way is right or that it&#039;s even rational. I&#039;ll have a post on all that someday. I don&#039;t think criticism is treason (just to head off the inevitable counter-post from the inevitable misreaders). But for me, I know what feels right. Maybe it&#039;s the Scots-Irish in me. Maybe it&#039;s the German.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether our military masters counter-insurgency and urban warfare now, or later, it&#8217;s going to have to be done. Whether they get it in Iraq or the next place, they&#8217;re going to have to learn. The more battalion-leader-level experience we have at this, the better the chances of developing a working model. It seems we&#8217;re pretty close to it, in my opinion, based on what I read about Fallujah and Najaf.</p>
<p>That set-piece tank battle on open European plains, the replay of Kursk, is looking more and more remote every day. Might as well clear that playbook off the shelf.</p>
<p>None of that, for better or worse, brings Iraq truly closer to stability, of course. But I remain confident that that country has a critical mass of people who are determined enough to make it work to, well, make it work.</p>
<p>Michael, if it was just you and I and a box of beers, I&#8217;m sure we&#8217;d agree on most things. But I have an emotional notion that while the war is still on, the criticism of the chieftain is not as important as persisting in the fight. I am not trying to say my way is right or that it&#8217;s even rational. I&#8217;ll have a post on all that someday. I don&#8217;t think criticism is treason (just to head off the inevitable counter-post from the inevitable misreaders). But for me, I know what feels right. Maybe it&#8217;s the Scots-Irish in me. Maybe it&#8217;s the German.</p>
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		<title>By: michael reynolds</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2005/11/14/iraq-justification-revisited/comment-page-1/#comment-3783</link>
		<dc:creator>michael reynolds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Nov 2005 02:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=1343#comment-3783</guid>
		<description>I think one of the correct Vietnam analogies is in the area of strategy.  We began in Vietnam with a strategy of attrition, the famous &quot;body count.&quot;  Toward the very end we shifted to a &quot;take, hold and build&quot; strategy using indigenous troops -- Vietnamization.  Some claim this would have been successful - eventually.  But by then it was way too late to talk to the American people about &quot;eventually.&#039;  We&#039;d had years and years of eventually.

In Iraq, same pattern,  with the twist that we start off with no sttrategy at all because we had fooled ourselves into believing that Iraq would be France in 1944.  We transitioned to a strategy of denial -- the insurgents were a handful of dead-enders.  Then we shifted to Vietnam Stage One:  attrition.  And now, finally, we are moving to a &quot;take, hold and build&quot; strategy using indigenous troops.   The correct strategy.  Too bad there is no indigenous army.

The problem with the &quot;as they stand up, we stand down&quot; slogan is that in order to stand up Iraqi troops we have to shift more of our people into training missions, which means they aren&#039;t available for combat missions, which means the security situation deteriorates, so that we have even more desperate need for Iraqi troops and around and around we go.  Bottom line:  we ddon&#039;t have a big enough army.  As it is we need to draw down in order to preserve thee integrity of our force, while somehow training ever more Iraqis, even while the security situations spirals down.

That&#039;s the problem here, in military terms.  We never had enough men.  We hit upon the correct strategy about two years late.  And now we are in a trap.

And that&#039;s not even getting into the political mess.

Vietnam was not the fault of the media -- we had 500,000 men in Vietnam at the peak, and stayed for a decade.  It was the fault of a hidebound military that did not get counterinsurgency warfare until far too late.  The US military was configured for a tank war at the Fulda Gap in Germany, not for counterinsurgency.

Iraq is not the fault of the Dems or the media, it is the fault of ideologues and theorists -- politicians and Pentagon civilians -- who deliberately refused to heed our own vast experience with counterinsurgency warfare.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think one of the correct Vietnam analogies is in the area of strategy.  We began in Vietnam with a strategy of attrition, the famous &#8220;body count.&#8221;  Toward the very end we shifted to a &#8220;take, hold and build&#8221; strategy using indigenous troops &#8212; Vietnamization.  Some claim this would have been successful &#8211; eventually.  But by then it was way too late to talk to the American people about &#8220;eventually.&#8217;  We&#8217;d had years and years of eventually.</p>
<p>In Iraq, same pattern,  with the twist that we start off with no sttrategy at all because we had fooled ourselves into believing that Iraq would be France in 1944.  We transitioned to a strategy of denial &#8212; the insurgents were a handful of dead-enders.  Then we shifted to Vietnam Stage One:  attrition.  And now, finally, we are moving to a &#8220;take, hold and build&#8221; strategy using indigenous troops.   The correct strategy.  Too bad there is no indigenous army.</p>
<p>The problem with the &#8220;as they stand up, we stand down&#8221; slogan is that in order to stand up Iraqi troops we have to shift more of our people into training missions, which means they aren&#8217;t available for combat missions, which means the security situation deteriorates, so that we have even more desperate need for Iraqi troops and around and around we go.  Bottom line:  we ddon&#8217;t have a big enough army.  As it is we need to draw down in order to preserve thee integrity of our force, while somehow training ever more Iraqis, even while the security situations spirals down.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s the problem here, in military terms.  We never had enough men.  We hit upon the correct strategy about two years late.  And now we are in a trap.</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s not even getting into the political mess.</p>
<p>Vietnam was not the fault of the media &#8212; we had 500,000 men in Vietnam at the peak, and stayed for a decade.  It was the fault of a hidebound military that did not get counterinsurgency warfare until far too late.  The US military was configured for a tank war at the Fulda Gap in Germany, not for counterinsurgency.</p>
<p>Iraq is not the fault of the Dems or the media, it is the fault of ideologues and theorists &#8212; politicians and Pentagon civilians &#8212; who deliberately refused to heed our own vast experience with counterinsurgency warfare.</p>
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