If we make it a habit to ‘physically intervene’ in how Iraqi Soldiers conduct their interrogations then have we really turned over sovereignty?

Just a note, it seems sad indeed that we’re talking about Iraq’s potential sovereignty in regards to torture.

And yes, I say we do make it a habit when we’re present. If the troops are there, they should do something, and report on it if they can’t.

If we make it a habit to ‘physically intervene’ in how Iraqi Soldiers conduct their interrogations then have we really turned over sovereignty?

I can understand reporting the ‘abuses’ through the Iraqi and our chain of command and to have them sort out what the process should be. If we are ‘making the laws’ over there then we aren’t observing Iraqi sovereignty.

I think that this was Rumsfeld’s point…. One that Pace may or may not have taken into account. I would certainly be for our soldiers voicing concerns with the Iraqi doing the actions and their supervisor, but not to physically step into something that we don’t have the ‘authority’ to do.

It’s a damned-if-you-do-or-don’t situation for the U.S. military.

I hear you on this one, but for the US isn’t it more of a damned if you don’t scenario at this point?

To that point, and as Pace says, as an American soldier you should do the right thing first and let everything get sorted out later.

I remember a similar case last June, when an Oregon National Guard battalion stumbled on pretty clear evidence of torture on dozens of prisoners held by Iraqi jailers in Baghdad. The guardsmen intervened, but later they were ordered to return the prisoners to their abusers and leave.

It’s a damned-if-you-do-or-don’t situation for the U.S. military. Either way, they’re going to piss off the politicians. If they follow protocol and don’t intervene at once, it will be played up in the European press as “America condones torture” (which is how the ONG story came out over there). If they do intervene, it will be played up in the domestic press as proof that Iraqi sovereignty is a sham and a fraud and the U.S. still is lording it over its new colony.

Its called an Illegal order.

Your superior officer orders you to do something you believe is illegal ( Like torture which is clearly and unambigously legal) if you do -not- refuse the order you have committed a court martialble( yeah thats a word) offense.

The standard is not “Is it torture” the standard is do you reasonably believe it is torture as defined by the UCMJ

so thats a bs line of argument, which is why much of the torture stuff ( accusations against the military) is inflated

It isn’t just the “liberal” press that is having a hard time seeing how this war had anything to do with the war on terror. The polls are showing that the american people are too. You’re right they are indistinguishable… NOW! We made Iraq a haven for terrorists by starting this elective war. Prior to that Iraq had little to do with terrorist activity, that’s why you have to say “that Bush lied or misled or whatever, but if we are to be successful we need to win in Iraq”. That’s like saying because I ran over our dog on the way to the party, you still have to smile because your at a party. It’s the “oops I did, Oh well, you have to fix it” ideology that is annoying america.

But Pace had a different view. “It is the absolute responsibility of every U.S. service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene, to stop it,� the general said.

Stop it? How? By assaulting fellow soldiers and officers? Insubordination? Mutiny? Any or all of those things may in fact be required to stop torture in progress, and all of these things are all but certain to leave the intervening soldier having to defend himself at court-martial at the very least. And what if a soldier intervenes in what at first glance appears to be an instance of torture, only to have it turn out to be a misunderstanding? He will have thrown away his career, his freedom and his good name (and possibly harmed his comrades) for nothing. Did Gen. Pace ever consider any of this? To the extent that soldiers are actually willing to physically intervene to stop torture, this strikes me as a recipe for trouble and lowered morale.