Comments on: Your Blasphemy Ain’t Like Mine http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/ Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable. Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:33:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.7 hourly 1 By: Jim http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6164 Jim Tue, 07 Feb 2006 19:47:18 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6164 "Well, I am entitled to disagree with any piece of art, thats one of the wonderful things I love about my country." Agree, Kevin. What I as a Christian find much more offensive than Piss Christ is the Koran's assertion that "God was not born from a woman." That is a blatant slam at the divinity of cChrist and atChistianity. Fortunately we don't have blasphemy laws in the US, but they have one in Denmark. How would Muslims there feel if their few imiams got the Koran declared blasphemous? “Well, I am entitled to disagree with any piece of art, thats one of the
wonderful things I love about my country.”

Agree, Kevin. What I as a Christian find much more offensive than Piss Christ is the Koran’s assertion that “God was not born from a woman.” That is a blatant slam at the divinity of cChrist and atChistianity. Fortunately we don’t have blasphemy laws in the US, but they have one in Denmark. How would Muslims there feel if their few imiams got the Koran declared blasphemous?

]]> By: kreiz http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6156 kreiz Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:32:38 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6156 Michael Reynolds ("The Mighty Middle") gets it right- "Muslims make a career at taking offense. Fundamentalists of all stripes do. Taking offense is just a pretext for thuggish behavior, just an excuse for them to intimidate us and to attack the liberty they despise. Offending them is now a civic duty. No surrender of liberty, no acquiesence to threats, no compromise, no kowtow, fuck them and the prophets they rode in on." By the way, I think that you and Professor Stephen Green are liberals extraordinaire. Somehow, few see it. Michael Reynolds (”The Mighty Middle”) gets it right-

“Muslims make a career at taking offense. Fundamentalists of all stripes do. Taking offense is just a pretext for thuggish behavior, just an excuse for them to intimidate us and to attack the liberty they despise. Offending them is now a civic duty. No surrender of liberty, no acquiesence to threats, no compromise, no kowtow, fuck them and the prophets they rode in on.”

By the way, I think that you and Professor Stephen Green are liberals extraordinaire. Somehow, few see it.

]]> By: Steve K http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6154 Steve K Tue, 07 Feb 2006 15:03:28 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6154 The point of reprinting is not to assert the right to do so - that goes without saying - but to show that one has the courage to exercise that right in the face of intimidation. Reprinting is not giving gratuitous offence under these circumstances (though it might have been if there had been no threats of violence). It means refusing to be bullied. The point of reprinting is not to assert the right to do so - that goes without saying - but to show that one has the courage to exercise that right in the face of intimidation. Reprinting is not giving gratuitous offence under these circumstances (though it might have been if there had been no threats of violence). It means refusing to be bullied.

]]> By: Brian in MA http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6127 Brian in MA Tue, 07 Feb 2006 03:15:56 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6127 Well, I am entitled to disagree with any piece of art, thats one of the wonderful things I love about my country. But the whole burning the flag of Denmark? DENMARK?! I don't even know whether Denmark has an army or not, nevermind ever having been offended by the Danes. The way I see it, if left wing cartonnists can say "**** you!" to Christians when they print up cartoons, they should be able to have the same testicular fortitude when they piss off Muslims. "Oh, sorry we offended you Muslims, here, have a box of burka chocolates and our finest virgin daughters" vs. "get out of heal you right-wing religious zealots!" Nevermind they are apologizing to a group of people who through out the Koran long ago for this 3-point mantra: 1. Any expression we don't like is an insult to Islam. 2. Any insult to Islam requires the originator of the insult to be brutally killed in a Jihad. 3. Jihad justifies all things, and killing other believers of Islam is merely "collateral damage" in attacks made against infidel scum. Praise Allah! Tactless cartoons? maybe. But I don't see the sissies apologizing to all the conservatives and christians they have mocked over the years, so I would tell them to grow some freaking balls. What happened to their fire or gusto? I guess when your target is actually going to KILL you in retaliationg instead of filling your inbox with outraged e-mails at worst, you suddenly lose your breath and start making apologies. No offense, but the kind of people who put up: "Europe will have your 9/11 soon" "Behead/Butcher/maim/slaughter those who insult/mock Islam" And "Get ready for the REAL Holocaust" are not the kind of people I'd feel too bad about offending. Maybe if blowing up women and children wern't what they do for kicks, I'd feel some largely misguided compassion for them. Well, I am entitled to disagree with any piece of art, thats one of the wonderful things I love about my country.

But the whole burning the flag of Denmark? DENMARK?!

I don’t even know whether Denmark has an army or not, nevermind ever having been offended by the Danes. The way I see it, if left wing cartonnists can say “**** you!” to Christians when they print up cartoons, they should be able to have the same testicular fortitude when they piss off Muslims. “Oh, sorry we offended you Muslims, here, have a box of burka chocolates and our finest virgin daughters” vs. “get out of heal you right-wing religious zealots!”

Nevermind they are apologizing to a group of people who through out the Koran long ago for this 3-point mantra:

1. Any expression we don’t like is an insult to Islam.

2. Any insult to Islam requires the originator of the insult to be brutally killed in a Jihad.

3. Jihad justifies all things, and killing other believers of Islam is merely “collateral damage” in attacks made against infidel scum. Praise Allah!

Tactless cartoons? maybe. But I don’t see the sissies apologizing to all the conservatives and christians they have mocked over the years, so I would tell them to grow some freaking balls. What happened to their fire or gusto? I guess when your target is actually going to KILL you in retaliationg instead of filling your inbox with outraged e-mails at worst, you suddenly lose your breath and start making apologies.

No offense, but the kind of people who put up:

“Europe will have your 9/11 soon”

“Behead/Butcher/maim/slaughter those who insult/mock Islam”

And

“Get ready for the REAL Holocaust”

are not the kind of people I’d feel too bad about offending. Maybe if blowing up women and children wern’t what they do for kicks, I’d feel some largely misguided compassion for them.

]]> By: Tom http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6121 Tom Tue, 07 Feb 2006 00:06:04 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6121 Kevin's point is that a culture that burns down buildings over a set of stupid cartoons (which frankly, weren't that offensive) in a second rate newspaper hundreds or thousands of miles away is backwards and irrational. That it isn't us, it's them. If they hate the Danes, who have welcomed other cultures and religions for close to forever, they're not going to love us no matter what we do. Kevin’s point is that a culture that burns down buildings over a set of stupid cartoons (which frankly, weren’t that offensive) in a second rate newspaper hundreds or thousands of miles away is backwards and irrational. That it isn’t us, it’s them. If they hate the Danes, who have welcomed other cultures and religions for close to forever, they’re not going to love us no matter what we do.

]]> By: Jim http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6115 Jim Mon, 06 Feb 2006 22:11:57 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6115 Pharisees have always been the biggest threat to Christianity, and often those Pharisees are in the Church. Justin is dead on the money about the value of Piss Christ, and with respect Brian, he was not talking about the Incarnation and not the Crucifixion. Sometimes the emphasis on the Crucifixion in a couple of wings in the Western Church can overshadow other aspects of the faith. The pint of that blesedly disgusting art is that, contrary to all the happy-happy of Humanism and Man Is the Measure and all that, the Church teaches that humans are basically shit, just with endless possiblities. God is a gardener, after all! Pharisees have always been the biggest threat to Christianity, and often those Pharisees are in the Church. Justin is dead on the money about the value of Piss Christ, and with respect Brian, he was not talking about the Incarnation and not the Crucifixion. Sometimes the emphasis on the Crucifixion in a couple of wings in the Western Church can overshadow other aspects of the faith. The pint of that blesedly disgusting art is that, contrary to all the happy-happy of Humanism and Man Is the Measure and all that, the Church teaches that humans are basically shit, just with endless possiblities. God is a gardener, after all!

]]> By: probligo http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6108 probligo Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:21:35 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6108 From Christian Times - http://ctlibrary.com/1648 <em>Virgin in a Condom Provokes Outcry Virgin in a Condom Provokes Outcry by Vic Francis in Auckland, New Zealand. June 15, 1998 When New Zealanders opened a $250 million national museum in the capital, Wellington, in February, much was made of the museum's name Te Papa, Maori for "Our Place." But one of the museum's first exhibits, Virgin in a Condom, a three-inch statue of the Virgin Mary sheathed in a transparent condom, has stretched the credibility of "Our Place" and caused a furor among Christians. The outcry saw daily protests outside the museum, an attack on the statue itself, a national television debate, and a 33,000-signature petition demanding the exhibit's removal. Te Papa officials refused to budge, and the exhibit remained on display until April 26 as planned. Another museum exhibit, a picture of The Last Supper with a bare-breasted, female Jesus, sparked further outrage. Catholics, joined by evangelical Christians and Muslims, led the outcry. Christian Heritage Party leader Graham Capill says the museum took great care to observe Maori spiritual mores but ran roughshod over Christian values. "It's increasingly clear that any faith or belief is acceptable in New Zealand, except for the Christian faith," Capill says. "Te Papa needs to be not only culturally sensitive, but also spiritually sensitive."</em>FREEDOMS BRING RESPONSIBILITIES The basis of this whole dustup is some w***ing little editor in Denmark who used an opportunity to get his paper its 15 secs of fame. In this case INfamy is the result. From Christian Times - http://ctlibrary.com/1648

Virgin in a Condom Provokes Outcry
Virgin in a Condom Provokes Outcry
by Vic Francis in Auckland, New Zealand.

June 15, 1998

When New Zealanders opened a $250 million national museum in the capital, Wellington, in February, much was made of the museum’s name Te Papa, Maori for “Our Place.”

But one of the museum’s first exhibits, Virgin in a Condom, a three-inch statue of the Virgin Mary sheathed in a transparent condom, has stretched the credibility of “Our Place” and caused a furor among Christians.

The outcry saw daily protests outside the museum, an attack on the statue itself, a national television debate, and a 33,000-signature petition demanding the exhibit’s removal. Te Papa officials refused to budge, and the exhibit remained on display until April 26 as planned. Another museum exhibit, a picture of The Last Supper with a bare-breasted, female Jesus, sparked further outrage. Catholics, joined by evangelical Christians and Muslims, led the outcry.

Christian Heritage Party leader Graham Capill says the museum took great care to observe Maori spiritual mores but ran roughshod over Christian values. “It’s increasingly clear that any faith or belief is acceptable in New Zealand, except for the Christian faith,” Capill says. “Te Papa needs to be not only culturally sensitive, but also spiritually sensitive.”FREEDOMS BRING RESPONSIBILITIES

The basis of this whole dustup is some w***ing little editor in Denmark who used an opportunity to get his paper its 15 secs of fame. In this case INfamy is the result.

]]> By: Jeff http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6100 Jeff Mon, 06 Feb 2006 19:11:29 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6100 This issue is real interesting. I think that there is quite a bit of common ground on it, though. Violence by terrorists is wrong, and creating violence merely because something offends you is wrong. The actions taken by the upset Muslims make the American Christians' protests look entirely benign. Boycotts against Target and shopping malls that don't say,"Merry Christmas" are nothing compared with riots. Also, the newspapers certainly have the right to publish these things, even though they understandably offend many people. Past that, there are a lot of things to sort out. One thing that I don't like about this is all the copycat newspapers reprinting the cartoon to show a united front on free speech rights. We all know that you have the right to reprint this, so what are they demonstrating? This seems like a cop out and an easy way to appear to be a noble champion of free speech. The idea behind the cartoon that Islam has many violent followers is an entirely unremarkable proposition, and reprinting this cartoon just unneccesarily inflames extremists. As an ACLU liberal, I understand the need for the right to free speech, but that isn't even at issue here. It would have made sense to let Denmark publish the original cartoon, let some Muslims get angry, and then let the issue drop. Reprinting the cartoon time and time again was needless and just irresponsible journalism. These people are no more champions of free speech than some crazy liberal performance-artist who craps on the American flag just to be dramatic and to show that he has the right to do so. It's a pointless, shallow gesture. This issue is real interesting. I think that there is quite a bit of common ground on it, though. Violence by terrorists is wrong, and creating violence merely because something offends you is wrong. The actions taken by the upset Muslims make the American Christians’ protests look entirely benign. Boycotts against Target and shopping malls that don’t say,”Merry Christmas” are nothing compared with riots. Also, the newspapers certainly have the right to publish these things, even though they understandably offend many people.

Past that, there are a lot of things to sort out. One thing that I don’t like about this is all the copycat newspapers reprinting the cartoon to show a united front on free speech rights. We all know that you have the right to reprint this, so what are they demonstrating? This seems like a cop out and an easy way to appear to be a noble champion of free speech. The idea behind the cartoon that Islam has many violent followers is an entirely unremarkable proposition, and reprinting this cartoon just unneccesarily inflames extremists.

As an ACLU liberal, I understand the need for the right to free speech, but that isn’t even at issue here. It would have made sense to let Denmark publish the original cartoon, let some Muslims get angry, and then let the issue drop. Reprinting the cartoon time and time again was needless and just irresponsible journalism. These people are no more champions of free speech than some crazy liberal performance-artist who craps on the American flag just to be dramatic and to show that he has the right to do so. It’s a pointless, shallow gesture.

]]> By: ford4x4 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6090 ford4x4 Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:04:54 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6090 Agreed, Joshua. We're in WWIII now... most of us just don't know it yet. Agreed, Joshua.

We’re in WWIII now… most of us just don’t know it yet.

]]> By: Joshua http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6084 Joshua Mon, 06 Feb 2006 15:07:48 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6084 The most shameful aspect of this whole cartoon story isn't that there are people who would denigrate a religion (nothing new), or even that there are religious zealots who would incite violence to avenge that denigration (again, nothing new). It's that more or less by default, the former have become the <i>de facto</i> standardbearers for the defense of free speech and other Western values from the latter. As I've noted many times on this blog, there's much more to the war we're in now than just terrorism and counterterrorism - after all, one doesn't have to be a terrorist to be an Islamic supremacist. That a bunch of cartoonists in tiny Denmark accomplished almost by accident what the Western mainstream media at large has not dared to even attempt - to expose the Islamic supremacist mindset to the world in all its ugliness - doesn't say much for the MSM's inclination to do its job, much less to stand up for the very freedoms upon which it relies, which the supremacists stand against. The most shameful aspect of this whole cartoon story isn’t that there are people who would denigrate a religion (nothing new), or even that there are religious zealots who would incite violence to avenge that denigration (again, nothing new). It’s that more or less by default, the former have become the de facto standardbearers for the defense of free speech and other Western values from the latter.

As I’ve noted many times on this blog, there’s much more to the war we’re in now than just terrorism and counterterrorism - after all, one doesn’t have to be a terrorist to be an Islamic supremacist. That a bunch of cartoonists in tiny Denmark accomplished almost by accident what the Western mainstream media at large has not dared to even attempt - to expose the Islamic supremacist mindset to the world in all its ugliness - doesn’t say much for the MSM’s inclination to do its job, much less to stand up for the very freedoms upon which it relies, which the supremacists stand against.

]]> By: Callimachus http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6080 Callimachus Mon, 06 Feb 2006 13:28:56 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6080 Moch of modern Christianity -- Catholic and Protestant -- focuses on the passion of Christ. But what PC reminds me, at least, is what a hell it must have been to step down from godhood into the frailty and hunger and need and pain of just daily mortal existence. The madhouse moment wasn't just the end of it. It was every cramping compromise involved in making flesh out of word. Moch of modern Christianity — Catholic and Protestant — focuses on the passion of Christ. But what PC reminds me, at least, is what a hell it must have been to step down from godhood into the frailty and hunger and need and pain of just daily mortal existence. The madhouse moment wasn’t just the end of it. It was every cramping compromise involved in making flesh out of word.

]]> By: Brian in MA http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6078 Brian in MA Mon, 06 Feb 2006 08:05:13 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6078 For some reason, I, being a fairly conservative Christian Catholic, seem to think that Christ ON THE CROSS is a better depiction of what Christ suffered for us than Christ IN THE CAN. Maybe I'm just not the type who goes into an art gallery and gets "WOW"'d by swirls of colors on canvas or objects hewn out of stone. What I appreciate about art is that someone put their blood, sweat, tears, and piss into it. But there is a fine line between art that conveys emotion and art that conveys hatred or misunderstanding, much like that Bush = Hitler "art" display that went around a while back. Jesus depicted onthe Cross with the crown of large, several inch long thorns is more than enough to remind us of what Christ suffered for us. The Romans knew A LOT about how to torture a man. The key difference here though, is that Christians didn't go around waving "behead those who insult Christianity" signs around. A rather amusing spoof on that Islamic sign angle was a photoshopped sign which said "Behead those who say Islam is violent". It got to the REAL point of the matter. As tactless as any given piece of expression is, it should not insight a Jihad against its originator. For some reason, I, being a fairly conservative Christian Catholic, seem to think that Christ ON THE CROSS is a better depiction of what Christ suffered for us than Christ IN THE CAN. Maybe I’m just not the type who goes into an art gallery and gets “WOW”‘d by swirls of colors on canvas or objects hewn out of stone. What I appreciate about art is that someone put their blood, sweat, tears, and piss into it. But there is a fine line between art that conveys emotion and art that conveys hatred or misunderstanding, much like that Bush = Hitler “art” display that went around a while back.

Jesus depicted onthe Cross with the crown of large, several inch long thorns is more than enough to remind us of what Christ suffered for us. The Romans knew A LOT about how to torture a man.

The key difference here though, is that Christians didn’t go around waving “behead those who insult Christianity” signs around. A rather amusing spoof on that Islamic sign angle was a photoshopped sign which said “Behead those who say Islam is violent”. It got to the REAL point of the matter. As tactless as any given piece of expression is, it should not insight a Jihad against its originator.

]]> By: Justin Gardner http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6077 Justin Gardner Mon, 06 Feb 2006 07:25:52 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6077 We welcome your comments Bob. Feel free to express yourself freely on this blog. We welcome your comments Bob. Feel free to express yourself freely on this blog.

]]> By: Bob Aman http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/comment-page-1/#comment-6074 Bob Aman Mon, 06 Feb 2006 06:17:53 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/02/05/your-blasphemy-aint-like-mine/#comment-6074 Absolutely excellent; this post is right on the money. Ever since this whole incident went down, I've been paying very, very close attention to the story. I'm really glad to see you taking this stand. Honestly, I've been wanting to turn this thing from a rediculous PR stunt into a worthwhile (online) display, but I have a funny feeling that I'd never find a web host that would permit it once they discovered what I was doing. And I have a funny feeling that it would get me fired too. (And I have barely even started considering the possibility of fatwas yet.) And <em>that</em> is what has me so incredibly concerned. Because if that is what I'm up against, what we're all up against if we want to speak our minds, then what have we allowed to happen to our freedom of speech? Absolutely excellent; this post is right on the money.

Ever since this whole incident went down, I’ve been paying very, very close attention to the story. I’m really glad to see you taking this stand. Honestly, I’ve been wanting to turn this thing from a rediculous PR stunt into a worthwhile (online) display, but I have a funny feeling that I’d never find a web host that would permit it once they discovered what I was doing. And I have a funny feeling that it would get me fired too. (And I have barely even started considering the possibility of fatwas yet.)

And that is what has me so incredibly concerned. Because if that is what I’m up against, what we’re all up against if we want to speak our minds, then what have we allowed to happen to our freedom of speech?

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