What I simply question is this – If this ‘ideology’ of ‘Aztlan’ is simply a notion (and nothing to be discussed), then perhaps you could explain the comments posted the site of:

http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/Indigenous%20Nations.htm

For those who have not the time, effort, or simply wish to continue the ‘Semantics’ Grandstanding, I will save you at least some of the effort and post a few of the comments below…

“For too long has our history and struggle been concealed, it is time to “get up and stand up”"

Question – Why would an organization wish to ‘conceal’ itself? Hmm… Well, I suppose that should merely remain a point for now. Let’s move on, shall we…

“Aware of our history and as a serious and disciplined movement, we must unite our people, to rid ourselves from the manipulation of the “Two Party Dictatorship” (democrats, republicans) who are simply the agents of US Global Capitalist Imperialism ”

HMMM…Now THAT is an interesting point. Perhaps THAT is one reason why they wished to conceal their identity. But let’s continue…

“We uphold that, Mexico, Central / South America and Aztlan are, “The Bronze Continent”, La Patria Grande, and state once and for all that, we, ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS!”

Now would anyone with an IQ above 72 please like to explain what exactly THAT is supposed to mean…?!

Let us define exactly WHERE ‘Aztlan’ is. Well, good luck – because even they don’t know EXACTLY where it is…

But on the page of

http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/AztlanMap.htm

you will find the link leading you to

http://www.tonatierra.org/aztlan.html

Here, you will find a map. This map details the general region (Aztlan), that is being claimed.

But if you are simply one of those types of individuals that says “You can’t tell ANYTHING FROM THAT MAP. For all we know, that could be a map of Ohio.” Well, okay – let me see if I can help you out a little more…

According to http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html (where Ironically, they seem to believe the same as Phillip J. Birmingham & Alan Stewart Carl), ‘Aztlan’ comprises of ‘eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington’.

There – are you happy now?

Back to the Comments. I will switch gears and now go to

http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/NationalIdentity.htm

for a moment. This page shares some insite into the beliefs as a group and their structure as a society. It also shares their ‘History’. One particular quote that I would like to examine is the following…

“Indigenous people of the Americas have been in a constant struggle to de-colonize. The Chicano Movement is no different. It’s struggle is for De-colonization of Indigenous “America”. ”

De-colonize? De-COLONIZE?! What in the world is THIS? DE-COLONIZE “AMERICA”?

“After a long process of analysis we have realized that our movement is not only for liberation and self-determination, but is part of the Movement for De-colonization, and the unity of Pan-Americanism”

Again – there’s that word: De-coloniz(ation)…

“Our movement is divided into three levels:

1.Creating our power
At this level the purpose is to raise the consciousness of our people and fortify our organizations through the unity of our people movement.
2.Laying out our plan
Lay out the blueprint
3.Putting our plan into action
Take the power ”

Putting our plan into action? Take the Power? What COULD that possibly mean? Really?

For additional points of reference, I suggest that you go to:

http://www.aztlan.net/

Yet, the two sites pretty much say the same thing (Just in different formats)

Okay – I have had enough fun posting all of this onto this message. If you want to read more, then you should simply go to the sites and read it for yourselves. (Unless of course, you already KNOW everything. In which case, you shouldn’t be arguing…)

There is One Final point I would like to add. Many will look at these comments and say “Oh – this evil racist created these statements from his imagination. They’re not real…”

There will be those who say “Oh – the sites that are being listed are nothing more than put-ons by Anti-Mexican groups. Those comments are fake.”

First – (and I will even testify in a Court of Law on this fact…) I DID NOT MAKE THEM UP. Click on the links and see for yourself.

Second – If you are having a hard time accepting these facts, then I suggest that you contact the Site Administrators for the above sites and see what they have to say….

Who knows? Maybe they are lying. Maybe they’re nothing more than a couple of Teenagers Playing a Very Practicle Joke. Perhaps they are simply American individuals with a very sick, twisted sense of humor. Maybe it’s all just one big joke put on by some Latinos wanting to poke fun at us….Perhaps. God – I hope so…

I’m addressing everything I have seen. I haven’t seen a comprehensive solution that I believe would cover the three key issues here:

1) Probably most importantly, make it easier to enter the country legally.
2) Nearly as important, severe punishment for any employer who knowingly hires illegal immigrants (I could see offering some leniency if they honestly didn’t know).
3) A way to handle those who are currently here illegally in a fair way. By fair, I mean not too burdensome to them but more importantly not in a way that treats them better than those who are trying to get here legally. I’m not sure what this solution is but I think it would include allowing those who are trying to enter legally into the country much more quickly than through the current process and deporting at least some of those who are here illegally as well as fines at least as stiff as what I have seen mentioned so far.

I’m guessing that by “what has been offered so far” you are talking about the proposals by the Senate and the House and not the suggestions on this blog. What I have heard from people on all sides of this debate is that no bill is better than a bad bill. I think I agree with that. How about you?

I fully agree with you that we have to deal with the businesses. Get rid of the demand for cheap labor and you get rid of a lot of the supply. However, that’s only half of the supply/demand equation. As long as we don’t deal with the supply side, some businesses will be tempted to try to evade the law and will create a demand for those workers. In this way, illegal immigration is kind of like the drug problem. You can’t simply go after the dealers because a few dealers will slip through the cracks and continue to supply the drugs to the users. You can’t simply go after the users because, as long as the dealers are there, there will always be more users. The best solution is to go after both.

I also agree with you that the crime of coming here illegally to get work in order to feed one’s family is much more morally justifiable than the crime of illegally hiring illegal immigrants simply to pad your company’s profits. However, both are crimes, neither is fully morally justifiable, and both should be punished. Personally, I think the employers should face much more harsh penalties than the illegal immigrants but I do think both the business owners and the illegal immigrants should be punished and letting the illegal immigrants stay here while those who are following our immigration laws are left waiting to get here through the proper channels is rewarding the illegal immigrants, not punishing them. I don’t know what the right solution is but I can see that what has been offered so far isn’t it.

I made up the 300% for exaggerative effect. I’m pretty sure, however, that a lot of big businesses can well afford to pay workers minimum wage and still make a lot of money. They’ll just have to take home 1 million instead of 2 million (again, before you get your panties in a bunch, I made that up as an example).

Yes, I do pretty much lay the blame on businesses. This is because they know better. These are educated people with support systems and worldly knowledge who are making a conscious decision to exploit underprivileged and desperate people with little to no education to make more money. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and it’s really intellecutally dishonest to act like the solution to the problem is to send everyone back where they came from and put up a big wall to keep them out. Just because people break the law when they come over here does not make them immoral or bad people. I am much more willing to forgive that example of breaking the law than I am to forgive businesses who are taking advantage of the situation.

Do you really think that all the Mexican Americans are just suddenly going to wake up one day and decide, what the hell, I’ll throw my good life in America away and start a civil war against the world’s strongest army in the hope that we can reclaim land lost 150+ years ago? The notion is absurd.

The spectre of the “race war” is just a fear tactic that was also used by those who wanted to deny black civil rights.

And, by the way, it IS legitimate to point out when people are being xenophobic and/or racist. Paranoia is never a good starting point when developing public policy. We have to be level-headed about this if we want a lasting solution. And, yes, despite the attempts by more than few commentators to cast me as some open-borders advocate, I do favor cracking down on illegal immigrants. But I want it done properly and without the kind of rabid fear-mongering some are engaging in.

Here, I’m just referring to the rhetorical temperature of the debate. Tell people they don’t belong in a place and they are likely to point out, when it is true, that their ancestors were here before yours.

Who are these groups?

VDARE. American Patrol. The Minutemen.

And why would you assume that that is my opinion? I have never advocated immigration from Europe only, and would consider that idea to be fringe at best.

I never assumed that, nor did I say it was. I just said that you should be careful borrowing rhetoric from people who *do* think that. People might get the wrong idea.

I do believe that we need to stand up to Congress and law enforcement and demand that they enforce laws against employers. Unfortunately, there isn’t enough volume directed toward Congress about this. However, if the question is why isn’t punishment of employers of illegals being debated on sites like this, the answer is because nearly everyone agrees. Debates are kind of short and boring when there aren’t dissenting opinions. That’s why we aren’t seeing debate of that topic on sites like this and instead seeing debate on the topic of what to do with the illegal immigrants. This is a much more complex issue, one I can definitely see good points being raised by all sides in but also one in which I stand firmly in saying that we should never reward people for breaking our laws by allowing them to stay in our country while punishing others for following our laws by continuing to make them wait to enter the country. I have yet to see any explanation of why such a standard is the right thing to do or why the programs being offered are anything but this.

It’s not an either/or thing. Yes, businesses should be held accountable, also (and I would really lke to know where that 300% profit figure comes from). Are you saying that this is all the fault of business? Really?

Luis:

Thanks. Your post does provide some perspective. You European bigot, you.

What I’m trying to point out here is that you dismiss those radicals that I cite while giving undo credence to those radicals whom you feel want no immigration excepting Europe. Who are these groups? And why would you assume that that is my opinion? I have never advocated immigration from Europe only, and would consider that idea to be fringe at best. You seem to think that this is mainstream opinion. The parallel is quite amusing.

And again, just for the sake of perspective, wars have been fought over real estate for millennia. It did not start with the Europeans. They may have been brutal by today’s standards, but the history of warring peoples is rife with tales of atrocities. One might want to inquire as to the brutality of human beings in general. So in asking who “started it” the answer has to be qualified as to timeframe.

If you look here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02169b.htm

you’ll find a cursory discussion of ancient Mexica peoples.

Battle for territory and conquest are as old as the land and the people on it. To arbitrarily pick a point in time and deny everything before that is disingenuous.

“As for economics, I would be careful with that argument. Many business are lobbying against any reform because they rely on paying illegals substandard wages. ”

Ummm . . . be careful? Why? I’m sorry if businesses are worried they will lose some of their 300% profit if they have to actually pay people at least minimum wage. The attitude that we should be careful is ridiculous. The businesses are the ones who should be careful because they are breaking the law. There should be absolutely NO consideration for that, period. That issue needs to be dealth with as a priority if this government expects anything to be solved with our immigration problems.

Ryan,
See above. People are talking about this, and it seems like everyone agrees, but clearly they do not, or else there would be no ifs, ands or buts about enforcing these laws. It would have been done yesterday. I find it extremely offensive that our government would seek out and punish the immigrants without seriously cracking down on employers. In this country it is time to stop allowing big business to have so much power.

You ask for proof and then you ignore it. You obviously don’t understand discussion.

I’m not at all impaired, I just profoundly disagree with the notion that we should coddle the “culturally paranoid.” Mockery is a better tack. They’ve slowed the rest of us down plenty already, and the sooner their qualms are seen as stupid, the better.

Anyway, you’ve proven that some people carry signs saying, essentially, “our ancestors were here before yours, and your ancestors stole their land.” This is in response to being told that their presence here in the US is not tolerable. I don’t usually go for “the other guys started it” types of arguments, but hey, the other guys started it.

I’m glad you favor a liberal immigration policy, but you should realize that these concerns you cite are primarily associated with groups who want, essentially, no immigration from anywhere but Europe, and consider how deeply you want to swallow that hook.

You ask for proof and then you ignore it. You obviously don’t understand discussion.

As to the crimes of the Europeans, no one here, including me, has excused European faults. It is interesting, though, that the popular myth that indigenous peoples were docile and devoid of all aggression is still hanging around. Plus, the whole concept of what indigenous means is open to interpretation (NB: look up Kennewick Man for some questions about original peoples).

I wrote previously that I favor a liberal immigration policy, although I believe that there are valid concerns. If you can’t understand this “centrist” point of view, big deal.

http://www.mexica-movement.org/ENTERHERETEXTONLY.htm

” YES TO TOTAL LIBERATION FROM EUROPEANS!
NO TO RACISM AGAINST EUROPEANS!
YES To Telling of ALL of the Crimes of the Europeans!
YES To Demanding Truth & Justice For Our People!
YES To Supporting The Constitution of the United States!
This is the instrument that will protect our people
and the Europeans who are on our continent!
WE WANT THE PROBLEM OF COLONIALISM
SOLVED WITH A DEMOCRATIC, CONSTITUTIONAL,
AND NON-VIOLENT SOLUTION!
TRUTH AND JUSTICE WILL WIN IN THE END!
Knowledge, Courage, Patience,
and Non-Violent Actions are our best path to Liberation.
YES to NON-VIOLENCE as a solution to colonialism!
We don’t want to do to the Europeans what they did to us!
We don’t want to behave in the savage manner of Europeans!
YES to the solution of Education for our people and for Europeans on our true history and their history on our continent”

http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm

enjoy.

Be sure to check out the sign that says, “This is our continent, not yours.” Or how about “All Europeans are illegal?”

That search took about, oh, thirty seconds.

And I will point out the signs are not in idiomatic Spanish, although I have to wonder why you think it’s necessary for anyone to be required to learn idiomatic Spanish.

If you had read my first comment without the blinders, you would not have jumped to the conclusions that you did. Instead, you betray your own prejudices. Good for you.

As for the idea that breaking immigration law doesn’t make them criminals, what does it make them, then? Not law abiding citizens because they are neither citizens nor abiding by our laws. They broke the law, they should expect to be punished.

In order to truly solve this problem, we need to handle both the supply side and the demand side. Go after anyone who employs illegal immigrants very aggressively and, at the same time, don’t give illegal immigrants the right to jump in line in front of those who have been trying to get here legally.

Boo frickin’ hoo. Rather than crying about people suggesting that your train of thought is racist, how about proving your point? If there are signs “something akin” to “Eurpoean Go Home,” you should have seen pictures you could point us to, no?

The whole Mecha/Aztlan/La Raza/Reconquista thing was pretty heavily thrashed out in the California recall, and many people who weren’t trying to use it to trash Bustamante pointed out that a lot of the “scary” rhetoric was not scary if you could actually understand idiomatic Spanish, and were interested in being honest about what was said.