Joe Klein
By Callimachus | Related entries in General PoliticsHe explains that quote that had us puzzled. He was misquoted, in some essential words, but not in his essential idea.
In his recent account of a breakfast book party at the home of Tina Brown and Harry Evans, Eric Alterman misquoted me slightly but significantly. What I actually said was “the hate America tendency of the [Democratic Party's] left wing” had made it harder for Democrats to challenge Republicans on foreign policy.
Alterman had me castigating the “liberal wing” of the party, which I was careful not to do. There is a crucial difference between liberals and leftists, especially on foreign policy–even though Republicans (and leftist-wingers) have successfully conflated the two over the past few decades. The default position of leftists like, say, Michael Moore and many writers at The Nation, is that America is essentially a malignant, imperialistic force in the world and the use of American military power is almost always wrong. Liberals have a more benign, and correct, view of America’s role in the world and tend to favor the use of military force if it is exercised judiciously, as a last resort, and in a multilateral contect–with U.N. approval or through NATO. The first Gulf War, the overthrow of the Taliban and the Kosovo intervention met these criteria; Bush’s Iraq invasion clearly did not. That was the point I was trying to make at breakfast.
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April 19th, 2006 at 11:03 am
Good. That certainly makes me feel better.
However, I will say that I hope he thinks that the leftists are the far, far left wing of the party. I mean, even though they’re strident, I don’t buy that even the wide majority of the left blogosphere represents these leftists or even comes close to hating America.
What I do know as a fact is that they have a much greater tendency to question our leader’s motives, especially when both the executive and legislative branches are Republican run. And I ultimately think they’re so questioning because they love their country and worry about its safety and credibility. And I do think Klein addresses this important distinction when he talks about our involvement in wars that liberals supported and wars that liberals opposed. It’s a vital distinction, and I’m glad he made it.
April 19th, 2006 at 11:54 am
Justin,
I agree that there is a significant difference between American liberals and American leftists. But I tend to think that many liberals have not done near enough to make those distinctions clear. There is, unfortunately too much cross-over and a certain amount of intellectual creep. Most of my friends and family are liberals and, as you might imagine, I get into rather heated debates–but it’s almost never about policy, per se. It’s about worldview. I too often hear a casual disdain for America, as if it’s a given that the problems of this world are primarily traceable to American actions. Liberals are, by their nature, distrustful of power (a sentiment I share, mind you) but they’ve recently let that distrust mingle with the hate-America sentiments of the leftists. And I think it’s primarily due to a mutual dislike of Bush. Until many more liberals do what you do, Justin, and routinely slap down the leftists, there will be confusion in the American electorate as to which worldview the Democrats are beholden.
And please note I am aware that I’ve made a few broad generalizations here.
April 19th, 2006 at 1:25 pm
“I’m a liberal, but not a leftist.”
“I’m a lizard, but not a reptile.”
“I’m a Rabbi, but not a cleric.”
“I’m a surgon, but not a doctor.”
I’m just freakin confused. You guys put Orwell to shame with your epistemological and linguistic goofery. It also make legitimate debate (oh, sorry, conversation) almost impossible because the morphing amebic nature of your self-interested catagorization.
Here is a small example:
Federal power? Finally, Ted Kennedy will support privatizing social security.
[insert chastisement for tone & threat to be banned, rather than substantive reply here]
April 19th, 2006 at 1:38 pm
Joe Klein’s position, as now clarified, is exactly where I stand.
However, it seems that the US (as mirrored by some around here) rather wants to be the schoolyard bully.
Oh, and you can call me “liberal” any time you like.
April 19th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
I’m not a schoolyard bully, I’m a recess intimidator with low self-esteem trying to gain friends by scaring them with ruthless quibs. I obviously have not made friends in NZ — so much for playing piano naked on my veranda.
Anyway, liberalism means statism to me. Liberalism means a love for the federal government. Liberalism means the leviathan, the FBI, the Department of Justice, the ATF, the DEA, international adventurism, libertinism, hedonism, a religious devotion to secularism, a disgust for organized religion, disregard for the family’s most basic role in society, social engineering, income redistribution, elitism, equalitarianism in outcome, drab soviet style housing projects, welfare lines and general disgust for tradition, private property and family.
Now I’m sure, Prob that you — wine drenched NZ aren’t all those things. You have far to much of sence of humor to be a liberal with my definition. I think I might be a liberal according to some peoples definition. Well, to whatever degree a liberal can also be a….schoolyard bully.
April 19th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Frankly that sounds to me a lot more like the voice of Pro, at least as I’ve heard it in my limited exposure to him online, than what Joe Klein says.
April 20th, 2006 at 11:48 am
Dos:
You’re using old labels, man. The political alignments have shifted. Our attempts to distinguish leftists from liberals is not an Orwelian trick but merely an atempt to bring definition to a very real divide that exists on the left.
You statist argument is accurate but off the point. We’re talking world views here, not how one runs the government. Seems to me both parties are pretty solidly statist these days. So we gotta find different ways to distinguish the sides.