You’re using old labels, man. The political alignments have shifted. Our attempts to distinguish leftists from liberals is not an Orwelian trick but merely an atempt to bring definition to a very real divide that exists on the left.

You statist argument is accurate but off the point. We’re talking world views here, not how one runs the government. Seems to me both parties are pretty solidly statist these days. So we gotta find different ways to distinguish the sides.

America is essentially a malignant, imperialistic force in the world and the use of American military power is almost always wrong.

Frankly that sounds to me a lot more like the voice of Pro, at least as I’ve heard it in my limited exposure to him online, than what Joe Klein says.

Anyway, liberalism means statism to me. Liberalism means a love for the federal government. Liberalism means the leviathan, the FBI, the Department of Justice, the ATF, the DEA, international adventurism, libertinism, hedonism, a religious devotion to secularism, a disgust for organized religion, disregard for the family’s most basic role in society, social engineering, income redistribution, elitism, equalitarianism in outcome, drab soviet style housing projects, welfare lines and general disgust for tradition, private property and family.

Now I’m sure, Prob that you — wine drenched NZ aren’t all those things. You have far to much of sence of humor to be a liberal with my definition. I think I might be a liberal according to some peoples definition. Well, to whatever degree a liberal can also be a….schoolyard bully.

However, it seems that the US (as mirrored by some around here) rather wants to be the schoolyard bully.

Oh, and you can call me “liberal” any time you like.

I’m just freakin confused. You guys put Orwell to shame with your epistemological and linguistic goofery. It also make legitimate debate (oh, sorry, conversation) almost impossible because the morphing amebic nature of your self-interested catagorization.

Here is a small example:

Liberals are, by their nature, distrustful of power

Federal power? Finally, Ted Kennedy will support privatizing social security.

[insert chastisement for tone & threat to be banned, rather than substantive reply here]

I agree that there is a significant difference between American liberals and American leftists. But I tend to think that many liberals have not done near enough to make those distinctions clear. There is, unfortunately too much cross-over and a certain amount of intellectual creep. Most of my friends and family are liberals and, as you might imagine, I get into rather heated debates–but it’s almost never about policy, per se. It’s about worldview. I too often hear a casual disdain for America, as if it’s a given that the problems of this world are primarily traceable to American actions. Liberals are, by their nature, distrustful of power (a sentiment I share, mind you) but they’ve recently let that distrust mingle with the hate-America sentiments of the leftists. And I think it’s primarily due to a mutual dislike of Bush. Until many more liberals do what you do, Justin, and routinely slap down the leftists, there will be confusion in the American electorate as to which worldview the Democrats are beholden.

And please note I am aware that I’ve made a few broad generalizations here.

However, I will say that I hope he thinks that the leftists are the far, far left wing of the party. I mean, even though they’re strident, I don’t buy that even the wide majority of the left blogosphere represents these leftists or even comes close to hating America.

What I do know as a fact is that they have a much greater tendency to question our leader’s motives, especially when both the executive and legislative branches are Republican run. And I ultimately think they’re so questioning because they love their country and worry about its safety and credibility. And I do think Klein addresses this important distinction when he talks about our involvement in wars that liberals supported and wars that liberals opposed. It’s a vital distinction, and I’m glad he made it.