“I agree, I don’t think she is a traitor, but I do think she is a criminal and worthy of prison and disdain. Essentially you believe she is a patriot because you believe the ends justify the means. I’ll be curious to see if you will apply your ends justifies the means logic to all arguements consistently.”

I’m curious to know if you think that all criminals are worthy of prison and disdain, and if you are an ardent believer in “the ends do not justify the means.” And by questioning Justin’s consistency, I’m guessing that you believe yourself to be consistent. I suppose there was a time in my life where I thought consistency was important; it’s bad to be a “flip-flopper.”

However, I now believe that on the scale of morality, it has become more clear to me that things are gray, not black and white, and therefore, sometimes the ends do justify the means. It just depends on the circumstances of that specific situation. In that same vein, I do not believe that all criminals are worthy of prison or disdain. If a man steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving family, is he acting immorally? illegally? both? neither? should he go to jail? should his punishment be mitigated?

What about the disenfranchised, poor, uneducated, african-american male, who has no examples to guide him except other african-american males who commit crimes, where the most respected and well-off males he knows are drug dealers, and where the males he knows who follow the rules are destitute and living on the streets. Should he just know better anyway? What if he has a low IQ? What if he is disabled, physically or mentally? What if he has been severely abused for most of his life? What if he has NEVER had a positive role model, or even known another male who does not engage in illegal activity?

At a certain point, we can’t disregard behavior because of these “excuses,” mainly because it would endanger the rest of us. Violence cannot be allowed. The violent must be kept away from the rest of us. We also cannot allow people to run around doing damage to our property and stealing. But, should someone get a 20-year jail sentence for possessing 5 grams of marijuana and driving with a suspended license? No, but it happens. Should someone be sentenced to two consecutive 20-year sentences for criminal non-support? No, but it happens. And, should someone be labeled as a traitor for telling the world about secret prisons where torture may be occurring? Should she be thrown in jail for “outting” a corrupt system? No, but it happens.

Hi, my name is George. I have been thinking for a long time that you need Democracy. Why? Because it will make you happy …. and we ARE going to make you happy … even if it kills you.

Michael Moore is not trying to take Bush down … he loves Bush … Bush has been a “Cash Cow” for Moore. Moore is not altruistic in any fasion. He is a monetary predator like his selected victims. What he does or doesn’t do has zero effect on the rest of us.

A serious Investigation is the centrist choice, between ignoring overwhelming cause for alarm and pushing for impeachment without enough evidence. How many leakers have to speak out before the American public will contact their representatives to demand it?

If the administration did have secret jails in European countries – I think it should be reported to the proper people and then resolved. What I disagree with is when a person decides on their own to release the information to the media without ever trying to get the situation changed using the proper channels.

That’s important. If you really wish to solve the problem, not just call attention to yourself or raise hell for your enemies, you have to allow for the option of fixing it quietly. Did she attempt to do this? Did she have a possible path to do it? [It looks like we're going to have to start writing about the McCarthy story in terms of "if she" instead of "she did."]

Michael Moore says he had copies of the Abu Ghraib photos before they were publicized. He didn’t take them to the authorities; he said he was holding them to use them in his movie. To me, that’s a damning bit of evidence: He didn’t care if the torture continued for months on end, so long as he got to take down Bush.

I wanted to see what people would say first, though.

It’s a trap, but I’ll join you in it. I’m essentially in favor of legal abortion.

Thanks for making your stance clear. I hope that when something similar happens and it’s a Dem administration and Republicans are not in power, that you’ll be as understanding of the leaker and condemn the adminstration for creating the environment that caused the leaker to leak.

I agree with you that the administration has failed on many occassions, but I honestly do not see how the administration created the Mary McCarthy leak situation.

If the administration did have secret jails in European countries – I think it should be reported to the proper people and then resolved. What I disagree with is when a person decides on their own to release the information to the media without ever trying to get the situation changed using the proper channels.

Justin -

I agree, I don’t think she is a traitor, but I do think she is a criminal and worthy of prison and disdain. Essentially you believe she is a patriot because you believe the ends justify the means. I’ll be curious to see if you will apply your ends justifies the means logic to all arguements consistently.

As I initially stated, McCarthy was wrong…but she also didn’t create the environment that apparently led her to decide she needed to expose information. Look at it like any business…if it’s poorly managed, people make mistakes, do stupid things, break the law. We have leaders and bosses to steer the ship…if they do a lousy job they have some responsibility. It’s no accident that this administration seemingly has one problem after another…they aren’t good managers. It starts at the top and filters down throughout the system.

So in the end, she’s accountable…but the leadership should also be made accountable.

Do I think Mary McCarthy, if she did this, is a traitor? No. This is an ill defined war with no end in sight, so accusation of treason are empty threats, and I don’t think the American public agrees that these acts are treason.

Do I think Mary McCarthy, if she did this, is a patriot? Yes. Because, in the end, I think her actions will help us fight the WOT, not hinder it. I think Bush’s overreaching policies are seriously hurting our credibility around the world, especially when he denies we torture and dozens have died in our “care.”

My two cents…

Which leaves the purveyors of that particular line in a precarious position of either admitting a mistake of their own, or that those they support made a rather serious tactical mistake, if such a thing is possible.

What are you talking about? Are you saying Bush is the disease and Mary McCarthy is the symptom? I can’t decipher what it is you’re trying to say.

From your post above, this statement bothers me: “no one seems to be acknowledging the simple fact that McCarthy has intentionally risked jail.”

I could say that about any criminal. In what way is this a defense?

Hmmm, who do you suppose is in charge such that torture happens…would that be a “leader”? If you have an illness, it’s far better to treat the disease than to merely treat the symptoms. Maybe you can prolong life by treating the symptoms…but if you want to get well, you have to go after the source.

To answer your question, I don’t know for sure that she hasn’t gone thru the normal process, but from what I’ve read, committee members to whom she should’ve reported her grievances were unaware of any attempt made by her to do so.

If she did try to go thru the normal process and it failed, then I would absolutely take that into consideration.

I don’t know the reason as to why she wouldn’t take her grievances thru the appropriate channels at the CIA, or Justice Dept, or even Congress. From what I’ve read – no one is aware of any attempt made by her to go thru the ‘normal grievance route’ – but instead went to the media first. I don’t find this to be an honorable action, in fact – I find it deeply suspicious.