Your right, I can not understand what motivates you to be so zealous in your convictions, but when you try toss them out there as if my not believing what you believe is some how A-Moral, is offensive. I never once said you did not have the right to believe what you believe in, you do, just keep it to yourself, or I’ll tell you what I believe in. If informing you and other christians that my opinion is different than yours make me sound like a zealot against you, or that I’m persecuting you or “your kind”, I apologize. I’m not persecuting you, I’m informing you that clearly there is not just ONE God in this world, there are many, BUT you have the right to pick the one you like for whatever reason you have for choosing to believe what you do.

Best Wishes jon, I know all I need to know about the man who you claim to be your father… I’ve got a father, he’s in Michigan. Good man, you’d like him.

I think it is condescending to imply that my view of the bible is a “twisted understanding of scripture” because it is not your own. I have a Bachelors in Comparative Religion, and I have studied the Text and I am not some half wit, who can not view this text objectively. And if you can not see that there are clear and Obvious inconsistencies with the Text, you must be blinded by your own faith. The evidence that represents inconsistency within the bible is clearly stated within the bible. This goes with clean and unclean food, marriage, slavery, circumcision and a whole host of other things. If you’d like to quote by from scripture on this, I will be glad to. It is only through your interpretation of the bible that you weed out what you chose to believe in or not… Hence all the various denominations. Some Laws are clear, and remain that way throughout the Text, but not all are so clear.

I like it when christians toss out bible quotes. Typically there are as many quotes against a thing as for it. Didn’t your man Jesus say,
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

But your assertion that nothing has changed in respect to our modern understanding of society and what is written in the bible is ridiculous. Slavery is tossed around repeatedly in the bible, too often to even bother writing here. Are you saying that Slavery is moral in the eyes of god? Some choice quotes are Ephesians 6:5-9, Colossian 4:1 and 1Timothy 6:1-3. Please spare me the bit about how slavery in the times of Jesus was more like a servant or hired hand, slaves could be sold to others, the Master had the right to kill the slave if the slave did certain things wrong. And I know that the Christians were told repeatedly in the bible to treat slaves as if they were your family, but it is still slavery, no matter how you sugar coat it.

Now in terms of marriage, you said that the New Testament is clear on marriage. I think your wrong there. Romans 7:3 “So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.� I think we all know that women did not have multiple husbands… men had multiple wives. How also do you resolve Mathew 25:1-13 where jesus tells the parable of the bridegroom and the ten virgins, where he takes five for his wife and rejects five foolish ones.

Also please show me where anyone in the new testament actually eats an “unclean animal”.

Our understanding of the bible changes with time, and so does the bible, how else do you explain the multiple versions, all essentially the same, but still different. Our understanding of the church changes as well, used to be just the Roman Catholic, then the Orthodox, then the Protestants, then the Anglicans, so on and so forth. Religion and our understanding of it changes through time, and even though the new evangelical faiths that tend to yell the loudest believe that they found the one true word of god in a text that has been around for centuries, It is still their interpretation of that text.

I’m sure that you realize that there are many things in the bible that you do not follow. Hasn’t the church always been selective on what things to follow and which not to? I’m not sure which denomination you follow, but I’m willing to believe that living in Australia, you eat shell fish, or pork. I’m willing to believe that you have no issues with interest on loans. There are thousands of things stated in the bible that I’m sure you do not practice, or think is applicable. I know that it polygamy is never discouraged in the bible, but I’m willing to believe you think marriage should be between two people. So, before you call others in your lot heretics for being selective in what they follow in the bible, “Let he without sin cast the first stone.”

I said in decline in the western world, being essentially Europe and the US. I admit, christianity is rising in Asia and a number of third world country’s where Islam has not taken root, but in the modern west, it is in decline, I’m sorry to say. There are more agnostics, being they believe in something but do not know what, now then ever. And you did not answer my question about respecting others beliefs. Do you? Do you think other people have the right to not believe in your god? Then if they have the right not to believe in your god, they must also have the right to be homosexual, and eventually face the wrath of your god. My thought is that you and others like you actually do not think others have the right to NOT believe in God, and that this denial of your truth is not covered in freedom of religion. Freedom of religion only really comes into play when the religious right want to impose their beliefs on others by tossing the ten commandments in a court house or organizing prayer in schools. See, but that is not freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is the right to follow whatever belief you think is right.

Instead of this latest convention working out the problem that decisions have already been made outside of the rest of the Christian communion, it has once again supported the tear in unity and pushed it even further by electing a bishop as leader that clearly supports the gay lifestyle for priests and bishops along with declaring herself as a prophet, who claims that gay lifestyle is no longer a sin.

Same sex attraction should can be avoided through celibacy for clergy and taking part in gay lifestyle is against the acceptable behavior of a Christian and will get in the way of a deeper relationship with Christ.

your opinions are most likely the very reason why chritianity is in a decline in the western world. See, but not all people, myself included, think the same way you do. I know you think you are just doing what your god asks, but I don’t believe in your god. This does not mean that you do not have the right to believe in whatever you would like. My denying the truth you claim to hold is not the same as me restricting that truth. Can you say the same about me? If the gov’t passes the rights for homosexuals to get married, it can not force a religion to grant wedding rites to homosexuals. But there are available civil means to getting married that can be obtained.

I know of several gay people in 3-way relationships, and they seem to be quite happy with the situation. The comments about MMF or whichever groupings being better for reasons of earning power, house purchase, and child care capacity are quite valid, as over the past generation earning power of the average person has decreased markedly while expenses have risen significantly. Two income households often barely make enough to make ends meet, much less afford the time and cost of rearing children.

The biggest problem with polygamy is a legal one, not a moral one. If a 3 person relationship ends, who gets the kids? Who pays and receives alimony? Who gets the house? In addition, how does insurance work? What about adoption? Our laws are all designed for two-person relationships, so while adapting them to gay relationships is relatively simple, polygamy would require a LOT of editing.

Along those lines, the biggest reason to allow gay marriage is a legal one. Over 1000 rights that are commonly given automatically to straight couples with marriage are denied forever to gay couples. A few of those rights can be approximated if you spend thousands of dollars on a good lawyer, but most can’t afford that.

A few of the big issues are taxes (big extra expense), inheritance (relatives often override wills), health care (did you know even if you get domestic partner health insurance you have to pay tax on the value of your partner’s granted benefits?), adoption (illegal in many states), immigration (no legal avenue to get a spouse into the country) and many many others.

So when right wingers start talking about “granting special rights” I get really mad…I just want the same rights that they get by default.

The polygamist would not use the same vows as are in traditional christian ceremonies.

Another quote from Jesus – relevant everywhere. “Judge not lest ye be judged.”

And by the way, if anyone considered polygamy with me, they wouldn’t have anything left to polygamise with. Marriage vows specify loving one person – forsaking ALL others. More than moral breakdown to the church, polygamy is breaking a personal promise.

Who says we shouldn’t allow polygamy? I don’t have a problem with it as long as it involves actual adults (not teenagers) who actually consent (are not brainwashed). I think it could be made legal, and it would work out fine, but it would need to be regulated quite a bit.

Do I think polygamy is a good idea? No. Would I do it? Absolutely NOT. I’m into the HBO series “Big Love,” which is about polygamists – one family has “modernized” and lives in the suburbs, while their relatives are still back on the “compound.” It’s an awesome show with lots of conflict, comedy, drama, etc. – like a soap opera. It both reinforces my belief that polygamy is a bad idea in my opinion and persuades me that people should be allowed to do it if they want to.