Comments on: Myth Power http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/ Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable. Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:03:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Treadmill Traci http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-712290 Treadmill Traci Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:07:45 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-712290 Good arguments here! I think we can all agree that DDT was a cause but not the largest cause of declining eagle populations. I don't really see how anyone can have an issue with keeping the bald eagle around for some time to come..? Good arguments here! I think we can all agree that DDT was a cause but not the largest cause of declining eagle populations. I don’t really see how anyone can have an issue with keeping the bald eagle around for some time to come..?

]]> By: Bob http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-244771 Bob Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:34:09 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-244771 I guess it's been a while since anyone has responded but Steven Milloy of Wall Street Journal "DDT never caused eggshell thinning and or bald eagle deaths" reported that it isn't hundreds of thousand of Africans die of malaria, but 2 million a year, half of those children. So, if we're really unsure about the effects of DDT I'd rather lean towards its use to save those 2 million people a year! I guess it’s been a while since anyone has responded but Steven Milloy of Wall Street Journal “DDT never caused eggshell thinning and or bald eagle deaths” reported that it isn’t hundreds of thousand of Africans die of malaria, but 2 million a year, half of those children. So, if we’re really unsure about the effects of DDT I’d rather lean towards its use to save those 2 million people a year!

]]> By: Jeremy http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-125308 Jeremy Mon, 27 Nov 2006 11:07:38 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-125308 I think the term used ‘interest in political issues’ is incorrect - we are not interested in politics as such, simply trying to find ways around poor legislation, poor money management (ie: fighting illegal wars when we could use the money better at home) and poor understanding of real issues with petitions, grass roots activism etc. I have become recently active not out of an interest in politics but as a result of politics inability to get it right. I think the term used ‘interest in political issues’ is incorrect – we are not interested in politics as such, simply trying to find ways around poor legislation, poor money management (ie: fighting illegal wars when we could use the money better at home) and poor understanding of real issues with petitions, grass roots activism etc. I have become recently active not out of an interest in politics but as a result of politics inability to get it right.

]]> By: djw http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49719 djw Wed, 12 Jul 2006 16:13:18 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49719 <i>it entirely was a much worse idea. How many thousands of human lives are worth the banning of DDT? </i> Brian: what are you talking about? We don't seem to have much of a malaria problem in the good old US of A. Despite persistent myths to the contrary, DDT is not banned for the purposes of malaria prevention, it is banned for agriculture. Which seems just about right to me. It's not as important as good old fashioned mosquito nets over beds, but it's part of the fight against malaria. Link: http://www.malaria.org/DDTpage.html it entirely was a much worse idea. How many thousands of human lives are worth the banning of DDT?

Brian: what are you talking about?

We don’t seem to have much of a malaria problem in the good old US of A. Despite persistent myths to the contrary, DDT is not banned for the purposes of malaria prevention, it is banned for agriculture. Which seems just about right to me. It’s not as important as good old fashioned mosquito nets over beds, but it’s part of the fight against malaria.

Link:
http://www.malaria.org/DDTpage.html

]]> By: gerryf http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49595 gerryf Tue, 11 Jul 2006 22:16:00 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49595 On that, I think we agree....that said, I see more people condemning "environmentalist wackos" and finding them under every tree and shrub when it suits their agenda, when those "wackos" are really few and far between. The very reason we are talking about this is because an comment was made about DDT and bald eagles as back story (the point of the story was te resurgence of the bald eagle population), and Fox News decided it was a golden moment to attack the environmentalist movement. If the original article was guilty of understating the impact of hunters, farmers and the encroachment of development on the eagle habitat, the Fox piece was guilty of overstating the great travesty of DDT. Fox made a mountain of a molehole, to use a cliche, to attack. The hysterics over DDT in the 1960s was clearly overblown, and if it was done to gain some sort of political gain, then shame on those who did it; and shame on Fox for dredging that up in its own self-serving "journalistic" activism On that, I think we agree….that said, I see more people condemning “environmentalist wackos” and finding them under every tree and shrub when it suits their agenda, when those “wackos” are really few and far between.

The very reason we are talking about this is because an comment was made about DDT and bald eagles as back story (the point of the story was te resurgence of the bald eagle population), and Fox News decided it was a golden moment to attack the environmentalist movement.

If the original article was guilty of understating the impact of hunters, farmers and the encroachment of development on the eagle habitat, the Fox piece was guilty of overstating the great travesty of DDT. Fox made a mountain of a molehole, to use a cliche, to attack.

The hysterics over DDT in the 1960s was clearly overblown, and if it was done to gain some sort of political gain, then shame on those who did it; and shame on Fox for dredging that up in its own self-serving “journalistic” activism

]]> By: BrianOfAtlanta http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49522 BrianOfAtlanta Tue, 11 Jul 2006 15:17:00 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49522 I don't mean to say that DDT has no adverse effects, I merely argue that the advantages overwhelm the risks. Spraying DDT on crops again is probably not a good idea, but banning it entirely was a much worse idea. How many thousands of human lives are worth the banning of DDT? There's a disturbing tendency in the environmental movement which tends to discount human life. Hence we see environmentalists foaming at the mouth over DDT when in reality the evidence implicating it in wholesale environmental degradation is very shaky. Yet, these same environmentalists who are so concerned over bald eagles and the like will casually condemn thousands upon thousands of people in Africa to death. It's the dirty little secret of some branches of the environmental movement that they just don't care about human life that much. When and if the public becomes aware of this, the backlash may be akin to the one the chemical companies suffered when it was discovered that they cared more about profits than public health. Remember "Better living through chemistry"? I say this as an environmentalist myself. It worries me to see the wackos hijacking the debates, because it makes it just that much harder for those of us who are trying to find workable accomodations between environment and humanity. I don’t mean to say that DDT has no adverse effects, I merely argue that the advantages overwhelm the risks. Spraying DDT on crops again is probably not a good idea, but banning it entirely was a much worse idea. How many thousands of human lives are worth the banning of DDT?

There’s a disturbing tendency in the environmental movement which tends to discount human life. Hence we see environmentalists foaming at the mouth over DDT when in reality the evidence implicating it in wholesale environmental degradation is very shaky. Yet, these same environmentalists who are so concerned over bald eagles and the like will casually condemn thousands upon thousands of people in Africa to death. It’s the dirty little secret of some branches of the environmental movement that they just don’t care about human life that much. When and if the public becomes aware of this, the backlash may be akin to the one the chemical companies suffered when it was discovered that they cared more about profits than public health. Remember “Better living through chemistry”?

I say this as an environmentalist myself. It worries me to see the wackos hijacking the debates, because it makes it just that much harder for those of us who are trying to find workable accomodations between environment and humanity.

]]> By: Sean Aqui http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49222 Sean Aqui Mon, 10 Jul 2006 21:15:51 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49222 The suburb I live in has large pockets of wetlands surrounded by tall trees -- perfect eagle habitat. We still marvel at the return of the eagles and other raptors. We just never saw them growing up. We've also seen other wildlife rebound, notably pheasants and turkeys. Reason magazine has a <a href="http://www.reason.com/rb/rb010704.shtml" rel="nofollow">nice summary</a> of the research. The overall conclusion: A DDT metabolite known as DDE causes eggshell thinning, as demonstrated by a well-known 1975 study. So DDT should be used with caution. But used it should be, to help fight malaria. The suburb I live in has large pockets of wetlands surrounded by tall trees — perfect eagle habitat. We still marvel at the return of the eagles and other raptors. We just never saw them growing up.

We’ve also seen other wildlife rebound, notably pheasants and turkeys.

Reason magazine has a nice summary of the research. The overall conclusion: A DDT metabolite known as DDE causes eggshell thinning, as demonstrated by a well-known 1975 study.

So DDT should be used with caution. But used it should be, to help fight malaria.

]]> By: reader_iam http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49206 reader_iam Mon, 10 Jul 2006 19:14:07 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49206 Funny to see this topic come up; just Saturday night, at dinner with Cal, I actually misted up talking about how wonderful it was to see a Bald Eagle <i>in my yard</i> back in Iowa earlier this year, a direct result of marvelous, persistent and devoted efforts to reclaim and nurture their winter nesting grounds along the Mississippi there. When I was a kid, living on the OTHER side of the river (before we moved East for all those years), I never saw one. Not once. I remember being taught about them in elementary school, as part of ecology and especially in connection with the first Earth Day. When we first moved back to the area, more than a decade ago now, you could see them, but the population has certainly burgeoned since then, and, as my "yard" reference demonstrates, gotten more bold, too! Best thing of all, my son takes it for granted (in the good way) that he'll see them every day in winter on his way to school, something I wouldn't even have dreamed of as a kid. Nice to see a success story, isn't it? Funny to see this topic come up; just Saturday night, at dinner with Cal, I actually misted up talking about how wonderful it was to see a Bald Eagle in my yard back in Iowa earlier this year, a direct result of marvelous, persistent and devoted efforts to reclaim and nurture their winter nesting grounds along the Mississippi there. When I was a kid, living on the OTHER side of the river (before we moved East for all those years), I never saw one. Not once. I remember being taught about them in elementary school, as part of ecology and especially in connection with the first Earth Day. When we first moved back to the area, more than a decade ago now, you could see them, but the population has certainly burgeoned since then, and, as my “yard” reference demonstrates, gotten more bold, too! Best thing of all, my son takes it for granted (in the good way) that he’ll see them every day in winter on his way to school, something I wouldn’t even have dreamed of as a kid.

Nice to see a success story, isn’t it?

]]> By: DosPeros http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49198 DosPeros Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:31:11 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49198 There was a recent thread on Dick Cheney's 1% Doctrine. I tend to have a 1% Doctrine towards the environment -- but some environmentalist think that they can't win their argument with less than 100% certainty. That is just bullshit. Look, what ramifications does DDT have on the environment? Well, with the exception of Brian in Atlanta, the rest of humanity doesn't seem to really be completely certain, myself included. So when confronted with uncertain environment impact, doesn't logic (let alone morality) fall on the side of restraint until further discovery. To bash Fox is stupid, they are as much in business as CNN or other news outlets. There was a recent thread on Dick Cheney’s 1% Doctrine. I tend to have a 1% Doctrine towards the environment — but some environmentalist think that they can’t win their argument with less than 100% certainty. That is just bullshit. Look, what ramifications does DDT have on the environment? Well, with the exception of Brian in Atlanta, the rest of humanity doesn’t seem to really be completely certain, myself included. So when confronted with uncertain environment impact, doesn’t logic (let alone morality) fall on the side of restraint until further discovery.

To bash Fox is stupid, they are as much in business as CNN or other news outlets.

]]> By: gerryf http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49195 gerryf Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:09:45 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49195 Fair enough, but please remember that my point was dismissing the effects of DDT on egg shell thinning is just as bad as the hysteria that it was the sole cause of the decline of the bald eagle. I make no such claim--just that I cannot stand it when right wing extremists go 100 percent in the other direction Here's one study online http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v096n02/p0268-p0276.pdf Here are some more, but you will need to pull them from scientific journals at your local library Lincer, J.A. 1975. DDE-induced eggshell-thinning in the American Kestrel: a comparison of the field situation and laboratory results. Journal of Applied Ecology 12: 781-793. Porter, R.D. and S. N. Wiemeyer. 1969. Dieldrin and DDT: effects on Sparrow Hawk eggshells and reproduction. Science 165: 199-200. Fair enough, but please remember that my point was dismissing the effects of DDT on egg shell thinning is just as bad as the hysteria that it was the sole cause of the decline of the bald eagle.

I make no such claim–just that I cannot stand it when right wing extremists go 100 percent in the other direction

Here’s one study online

http://elibrary.unm.edu/sora/Wilson/v096n02/p0268-p0276.pdf

Here are some more, but you will need to pull them from scientific journals at your local library

Lincer, J.A. 1975. DDE-induced eggshell-thinning in the American Kestrel: a comparison of the field situation and laboratory results. Journal of Applied Ecology 12: 781-793.

Porter, R.D. and S. N. Wiemeyer. 1969. Dieldrin and DDT: effects on Sparrow Hawk eggshells and reproduction. Science 165: 199-200.

]]> By: ford4x4 http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49186 ford4x4 Mon, 10 Jul 2006 16:09:57 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49186 Since it's Fox, it can't be true? I'd appreciate some facts to back up your claim. "General scientific consensus" is kind of vague. You could be referring only to university professors for all we know. Since it’s Fox, it can’t be true? I’d appreciate some facts to back up your claim. “General scientific consensus” is kind of vague. You could be referring only to university professors for all we know.

]]> By: gerryf http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49183 gerryf Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:30:26 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49183 and this is the kind of corporate sponsored, right-wing "journalism" famous when it comes to Fox Consider the source. The issue is far more complex than Fox would have you believe, and despite some debunking, there is a general scientific concensus that DDT thins the eggshells of sensitive raptors. Studies cited by those say that DDT thinking egg shells is a myth were performed on chickens and other birds, which do appear to be less sensitive to the effect than raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, etc) But, it is duly noted that DDT is not the sole cause of the bald eagle dying off in the latter part of the 20th century, nor even a major cause -- but it was certainly a cause. Now, does that mean I am against DDT? No, truthfully, DDT is perhaps one of the best ways to control mosquitos that carry the malaria virus and a wise, judiciual use can do more good than harm. While it is true the environmentalists are guilty of skewing the issue based on incomplete science and hysteria, the non-environmental crows is equally guilty of skewing the issue enflamed by their passion of debunking all things environmental. The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. p.s.--when did Brian move from MA to Atl? and this is the kind of corporate sponsored, right-wing “journalism” famous when it comes to Fox

Consider the source.

The issue is far more complex than Fox would have you believe, and despite some debunking, there is a general scientific concensus that DDT thins the eggshells of sensitive raptors.

Studies cited by those say that DDT thinking egg shells is a myth were performed on chickens and other birds, which do appear to be less sensitive to the effect than raptors (eagles, hawks, falcons, etc)

But, it is duly noted that DDT is not the sole cause of the bald eagle dying off in the latter part of the 20th century, nor even a major cause — but it was certainly a cause.

Now, does that mean I am against DDT? No, truthfully, DDT is perhaps one of the best ways to control mosquitos that carry the malaria virus and a wise, judiciual use can do more good than harm.

While it is true the environmentalists are guilty of skewing the issue based on incomplete science and hysteria, the non-environmental crows is equally guilty of skewing the issue enflamed by their passion of debunking all things environmental.

The truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle.

p.s.–when did Brian move from MA to Atl?

]]> By: BrianOfAtlanta http://donklephant.com/2006/07/10/myth-power/comment-page-1/#comment-49178 BrianOfAtlanta Mon, 10 Jul 2006 15:06:42 +0000 http://donklephant.com/?p=2416#comment-49178 The unwarranted hysteria over DDT will go down in history as one of science's darkest hours. It is a prime example where a highly motivated wing of the scientific community was able to hijack the entire debate, supress the results pf legitimate research and perpetuate a scientific falsehood for decades. It wouldn't be such a catastrophe if it hadn't already cost hundreds of thousands of lives in Africa alone. When the truth about this lie finally comes out, it's going to hurt the environmental scientific community big time. The unwarranted hysteria over DDT will go down in history as one of science’s darkest hours. It is a prime example where a highly motivated wing of the scientific community was able to hijack the entire debate, supress the results pf legitimate research and perpetuate a scientific falsehood for decades. It wouldn’t be such a catastrophe if it hadn’t already cost hundreds of thousands of lives in Africa alone. When the truth about this lie finally comes out, it’s going to hurt the environmental scientific community big time.

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