I have expanded on the theme here.

If I read what you are trying to say correctly, the mere fact that “Islamists” were responsible for a particular action completely negates any need to even think about let alone understand the “why” it might have happened. After all, it is only what “Islamists” do.

Have you read the independant NGO reports from the Gujarat riots? They make for interesting reading.

“I know that 9/11 made me more aware of the Islamist threat. Did it not do that for you at all? “

I know that you directed the question to another, but I want to put my answer to you.

9/11 and what has followed has made me very much aware of two things.

Firstly, that it is possible for individuals to “wage war” against a nation, even one as powerful as the US. But if I am honest, I did not need 9/11 to prove that. Oklahoma City should have been sufficient. So should the first WTC bombing. I put “wage war” in quotation marks as I am still not convinced that it is appropriate. Certainly there is a criminal act; but a declaration of war?

Secondly, that it matters not who or what one might be; individual or nation. It is a fundamental that every action will lead to a commensurate consequence. That consequence may be masked by further actions, or falsehoods, but it will still be there.

Which then leads to my comment on self-fulfilling prophesy.

The response to 9/11, the GWOT (which is hardly “global” at all), the war in Iraq (and I exclude Afghanistan as that was UN sanctioned and we all bear responsibility for it) have all had one effect - the killing of considerable numbers of Muslims.

The prophecy that is self-fulfilling is that made by those who drive the other side of this “war”. They are not “dumb Islamofascists”. They predicted the response of the “Great Satan”. They prepared their followers for death and glory. They predicted that the response of the “Great Satan” would kill a great many of their numbers. They prepared their path for glory - “If your life is going to end at the hands of the Great Satan, then you have the responsbility, the religious duty, to strike back even at the cost of your life”. It is happening now in Iran. A mother “signs up” (if you listen to the propaganda) 200,000 from her neighbourhood as jihadi. Her name was first on the list.

And the “Great Satan” sees a threat, or some other need to respond, and moves to remove it.

The prophecy is fulfilled.

Oh, and as far as OBL mentioning Palestine as “the cause”… I seem to recollect hearing an audio (Al Jezheera of course) of OBL just not long after 9/11. In the translation that I heard there was mention that 9/11 was revenge for “the twin towers of Palestine”. I believe that this was a reference to the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. Others may have closer proof either way than I can lay my hand to at present.

You ask me “what more could really be expected?”

How about a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King? Those two men and their movements advanced their cause peacefully and with huge successes. Those are my expectations. Those are the people that I and other civilized people of the world would bargain with and listen to. I don’t excuse terrorism because people have grievances.

Your description of why my line of argument is of the “self fulfilling prophecy” type isn’t at all clear to me. Please explain it further as I’m interested in understanding.

When you quote 7/11 India as an “example” of Islamic terrorism, I suggest a small modicum of caution should be taken.

The situation in Gujarat and Maharashtra is at least as confused as that in Bosnia, Kosova or Lebanon.

The history of Maharashtra since the creation of Pakistan in 1947 includes at least two instances of state sponsored civil action by Nationalist Hindus against a comparatively small Muslim minority. Given the oppression and killing of a minority with the tacit involvement of the state is likely to lead to “self-protection” what more could really be expected?

Your line of argument is nothing more than continuing the self-fulfilling prophesy that has been used by a small number of very well known people over the past five years.

The rationale behind that self-fulfilling prophesy has always escaped me. It has certainly been an effective weapon; at keeping the folks at home on side, and at creating even more enemies in the wider world and thus increasing the probability of the self-fulfilment.

The one small ray of hope comes from thoughts such as those expressed by ASC. A small ray, shining through the smoke clouds of war. I suspect that it is going, rather than approaching…

HHC 1-37 AR FSE, 1BCT, 1AD
Camp Ar Ramadi, Iraq

I agree - I think that people do use the US’s support for Israel as an excuse for terrorism. But OBL never mentioned the Palestinian cause for his reason for declaring war on us. In fact - from the Al Qaeda video released recently we find out that some of the hijackers gave their reason for participating in 9/11 as a way to “avenge the suffering of Muslims in Bosnia and Chechnya”. See here: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1B135B31-508F-4E0C-93E9-5077551D1B9D.htm

Bosnia - this where the US and other NATO members (without UN approval) went in to save Muslims from being slaughtered.

Also - what justification works for you as to why there have been 1730 murders in Thailand (amongst mainly Christians and Buddhists) by the Islamist? See here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1864584,00.html)
It certainly isn’t their support for Israel.

What about India? (remember 7/11?)
Or Germany? (where the bombs failed to go off)
Or Spain? (remember 3/11)

I don’t know if 9/11 changed the world - only history will tell us. But I know that 9/11 made me more aware of the Islamist threat. Did it not do that for you at all?

9/11 didn’t “change the world,” look at some history.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-09-06-poll-iraq_x.htm

64% in 2005
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=544

I strongly agree with your post and I too find Ken and his ludicrous conspiracy to be a sad reality. It’s tragic that 9/11 and the WOT are political wedge issues, repulsive really. I hold both parties accountable for contributing to this madness, and unfortunately I don’t see any resolution in sight.

*sigh*

This is what saddens me so. We cannot even agree on the realities of the world. I would like to believe you are just a lone conspiracy buff who loves a good yarn more than reality, but I’ve seen polls that say as many as 35% of Americans agree with you.

It would be wonderful to think that the world was well-ordered and fully controled–that only great powers could cause great horrors. But 9/11 conspiracy theories are, at best, an infantile need to believe in perfect order and, at worst, are malicious propaganda created to defame America and advance Islamists causes. It actually takes willfull effort to ignore the hard facts and believe in the so-called “unanswered questions.”

If I seem rude, forgive me. These conspiracy theories make me misserable because they are evidence of how terribly, terribly far we, as a nation, has to go before we can reconcile our differences. How do we have a conversation when we can’t even agree on what is and isn’t real?

It’s a messy, chaotic, unpredictable, uncontrollable world. 9/11 was proof of that.

There is a precedent that should be carefully analysed and digested. The attack on the Maine. Pearl Harbor. The Gulf of Tonkin. The number of observations that do not fit what has been ascribed to the events on 9/11 is staggering. Why did the secret service allow Mr. Bush to remain in a publicly disclosed location for over an hour after it was abundantly clear that the nation was under large scale attack? Why did Mr. Cheney refuse to order flight 11 to be shot down even though he watched it on radar for over 50 miles in the command center under the White House that day? Why does a political think-tank report from late 2000, which had as its members Cheney, Wolfowitz, Perle and Rumsfeld, call for the American occupaction of Iraq, Iran, Syria, Jordan and Libya, and why would they frame this gaol as an effort that will be difficult to achieve lacking public consensus stemming from a catalysing event like Pearl Harbor? Why did Rumsfeld and several other government officials stop flying public airlines in the summer of 2001 and resort to private charters? How did an aircraft manage to even gain access to airspace of the most highly defended capital in the world and then crash into a building that had been protected by ground to air anti-aircraft missiles since the early 1960s?

If you are able to critically evaluate both left and right as you say you are, it would behoove you to start questioning the official story about the events of 9/11. They don’t hold up for long. The federal government, at best, let 9/11 happen for a reason. Dig deep enough, and the fact that the were complicit in the events becomes plausible.