The Scouts get their wish
By Sean Aqui | Related entries in Discuss, NewsBe careful what you ask for, because you might not like what you get.
Six years ago, the Supreme Court ruled — correctly — that a private organization like the Boy Scouts could not be forced to accept gays as either Scouts or leaders.
Since then, however, the Boy Scouts have learned a lesson about the other side of freedom of association: the rest of society can choose whether it wishes to associate with you.
Parents have pulled their children out of Scouting. Cities, schools and governmental organizations have stopped sponsoring Boy Scout troops, or stopped providing them with subsidized services or facilities, or stopped listing them on employee charity forms.
The Boy Scouts have sued, claiming victim status. But as long as governmental services are provided (or not) based on objective criteria, the Boy Scouts have no leg to stand on. Cities aren’t required to give the KKK free access to city facilities, and they are similarly not required to provide such access to the Scouts.
This is a shame. I was an Eagle Scout and an Order of the Arrow member. I was senior patrol leader for my troop. I spent 10 years in Scouting, and the experience was phenomenal. The Scouts, at their best, provide young boys with camaraderie, self-confidence, skills and experiences that can be hard for city dwellers to come by another way.
But the anti-gay facet of Scouting was never a factor in my experience. Had it been, the whole experience would have been different, and lessened. We recited the Scout Oath, but “morally straight” never meant “heterosexual”; it meant “upstanding and honest.”
Similarly, religion wasn’t central to Scouting back in my day. It was about camping, and knot-tying, and hiking, and being of good character.
Religion intruded on us only once while I was a Scout. Our longtime Scoutmaster bowed out, and the new Scoutmaster began holding mandatory “nondenominational” church services on campouts. They were nondenominational only if you were Protestant Christian, and many of us weren’t; besides Catholics, we had Jews, Muslims and assorted nonbelievers in the troop.
I led the Senior Patrol in a boycott of the services, and told the Scoutmaster that most of the senior Scouts would quit if he didn’t stop. That led to a meeting of troop parents in which the Scoutmaster was indeed told to knock it off.
Later, when I was finishing up work for my Eagle badge, I had to choose one part of the Scout Law to write an essay on. I chose “Reverent”, and argued that it didn’t mean “religious”; it meant having respect for religion and the beliefs of others.
I also asked my Scoutmaster to write one of the three required recommendations. To his credit, he did so.
I fondly remember my time in Scouting. But what Scouting has to offer is not tied to religious beliefs; it’s tied to the values and citizenship it promotes. Some may argue that those values are rooted in religion. I disagree, but it’s irrelevant. Whatever they’re rooted in, they do not need religion in order to propogate. And the current Scout leadership, by emphasizing the religion over the common values, do a great disservice to both and to the value Scouting has provided to American society for decades.
So based on the values taught to me by Scouting, I conclude that they deserve everything they get. I only hope that they abandon their current folly before they do too much harm to future generations, for whom Scouting may not have the meaning or the value that it had for previous generations.
This entry was posted on Tuesday, October 17th, 2006 and is filed under Discuss, News. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
October 17th, 2006 at 12:06 pm
Hear, hear.
I seem to be in roughly your camp (pardon the pun). Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow (including Brotherhood). Loved it all. I found it telling that gay men loved it, too; they -wanted- to be Scouts.
And I’ve always resonated with your point: “the rest of society can choose whether it wishes to associate with -you-.” That’s the limiting factor on the First Amendment. The best factor. Say what you want, assemble as you want, but the rest of us have the right to do the same.
The best thing about constitutional rights is NOT that they are guaranteed, because they aren’t, and never were. Rather, the best thing is that they are limited only by what the universe itself will permit.
October 17th, 2006 at 12:13 pm
I don’t think it was the Boy Scouts that initiated the culture war. As I recall, it was the Scouts who were sued and I doubt very much they welcomed the fight, then or now. So to position the Scouts as reaping what they sow is a little off. They were forced to pick a side and they did so and they will live with the consequences (good, bad or ugly)…on the coasts. In the heartland, the Scouts are doing just fine.
October 17th, 2006 at 12:16 pm
The most important issue in my mind is not that individual cities can choose not to associate with the Scouts, (which is a good start) but that public tax dollars should NEVER be allowed to pay for a religiously affiliated organization. Unfortunately this decision falls short of that consitutionally required position.
October 17th, 2006 at 12:18 pm
Lessons For The Boy Scouts
A short but meaningful essay by Sean Aqui about his time in the Scouts, and what it meant to him. (via TMV)
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October 17th, 2006 at 12:27 pm
I don’t think it was the Boy Scouts that initiated the culture war. As I recall, it was the Scouts who were sued
Ahmmmmm….no. The Scouts were sued because the Scouts initiated a purge of gays from their ranks. Who started that war? It wasn’t James Dale. He just wanted to be a Scout.
October 17th, 2006 at 1:02 pm
I’m an Eagle Scout, and I thought the Court was right to decline this case. If you’re going to say you’re a private entity with the right to exclude people based on your principles, then the community should respect your free expression, but it is not required to subsidize it.
This represents just one instance of the baby going out with the bath as a result of the BSA’s stand on homosexuals, a stand I don’t agree with. My reading of the Scout Oath is the same as yours.
October 17th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
As an Eagle Scout, a former Senior Patrol Leader and Brotherhood member of Order of the Arrow….it saddens me deeply that Boy Scouting has been hijacked by a small group of extremists and caught up in this mess……I loved scouting for exactly the reasons you pointed out the self confience it built, the commorderie, the life skills I learned, but tragically this once great organization has been sullied. Hopefully the powers that be will come to their senses and agree upon some sort of compromise…for know the real victims are the young men who are being denied the full promise of what scouting should be….
October 17th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
Oh, yes they did. The Mormons started taking over the organization and eventually forced the anti-gay meme into the organization.
And this isn’t the only time the Mormons have done this. In 1974, they had an openly discriminatory policy against blacks.
Both times they were sued. The Mormons didn’t go to court the first time, and amended their bylaws to include African-Americans. The second time, well, the Supreme Court allowed their discrimination because it was a private organization.
I, for one, am glad the organization is dwindling because of this hateful policy. Serves ‘em right.
In the meantime, kids can join Campire USA, which is an all-inclusive organization that promotes integrity, responsibility and…wait for it…tolerance!
October 17th, 2006 at 2:06 pm
The scouts are dying…its sad. I am a former scout, son of the scoutmaster in our troop (who was my cubmaster before that). We never let religion and politics into the troop. Although with one scoutmaster who was kind of buddy buddy to all of us older boy scouts we would get into a discussion about the nature of the afterlife, and it would be interesting indeed, although I believe there were plenty of athiests (and in my case agnostics) in the scouts who ddidn’t really DO the religion thing, we really didn’t care. I went on to use my scouting abilities to save a drowning kid’s life, and I got the Boy Scout medal of heroism for it. But, it seems like its all for naught. The boy scouts aren’t just dying because of the national organization’s bigotry. They are also dying because of the fact that its primarily a white christian organization. And our society is rapidly moving away from that paradigm. The scout’s have not learned how to reach out to minority groups or minority religions in a way that could tap them into the organization. So yes, the national organization heads are religious bigots. But on the macro-level, scouts needs to change to survive, and it just doesn’t look like its doing that.
October 17th, 2006 at 5:17 pm
I think the comments reveal how, although the scouts are a national organization, the regional and local experiences can vary dramatically. I was a scout for a very short time, growing up in New Jersey. Religion was there, but more simply out of ritual than out of moral foundation (or means to exclude).
So yes, in those areas (mostly the coasts, I suppose) where religion wasn’t strongly there before the court challenges, the scouts will suffer. And likewise they may be doing “just fine” in the heartland, as DosPeros says. But they now face the severe risk of becoming limited as a “heartland” organization that no longer has relevance on a truly national scale. Will the Scouts as a whole be better off when one day only 25 states are represented at the national Jamboree? Yet another sign of “two Americas,” and you can’t convince me they’re (or any of us are) better off for it.
October 17th, 2006 at 8:19 pm
I was a scout for about a week. On the first camp out I was supposed to bring a sleeping bag, a canteen, and a knife. Since we were an army family I brought a standard issue army sleeping bag, canteen, and blued steel Marine corps bayonet my dad had around.
I learned that I was on the list of other new scouts who would be initiated by being pantsed and chased around the woods. (Speaking of gay.) I let it be known that anyone who came into my tent would find out just how sharp a bayonet can be. The next day I quit.
How’s that for a heart-warming Scouting memory?
Ah, good times.
October 17th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
m.takhallus – I had a very similar scouting experience. It is called a snipe hunt. I was blind-folded, marched into the middle of a forest/swamp/bog and left. I got back to camp four hours latter, covered in mud and missing a shoe (it got stuck in the bog). The next morning I had a t-ball game…I had to play with two different shoes. I lasted about a week and took up smoking pot. Screw the Scouts…gay or not.
October 17th, 2006 at 8:50 pm
I passed on Scouting as our local Pack/Troop was a bit strict in membership. They were very, um, click-y in the late 60s/early 70s.
Instead I joined the YMCA. I went to summer camp and did a lot of the same things you probably did in the BSA. Even though Christian is in the title, they never checked to see my Bible and religion was never discussed (a good thing as I would have flunked any test). It was open to anyone that could pay the dues. No one was ever refused because they were too poor, fat, ugly, handicapped or gay.
The other thing about Scouting is it’s Military feel. Perhaps that is an equal reason for Scouting being in decline. When our country stopped the draft, the Military became voluntary (if you don’t count stop-loss). Perhaps the sentiment for Scouting became more “voluntary” too in that it is no longer pushed by Military fathers. The paradigm shift that came out of Vietman is catching up with the BSA a generation later.
October 17th, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Interesting points…
“Regligous organization” – HMM – But which religion? As I recall, more than 4 dozen faiths – from Catholic to Jewish, Islam to Hindu, Unitarian to Buddhist, as well as some I cannot pronounce, offer awards to youth through Scouting – not Scouting awards – but awards presented by those faiths….
“Culture wars”…. When did Scouting EVER state, imply, or otherwise suggest that Scouting welcomed gay leaders? DALE? Was he a BOY or an ADULT when he took the court case? Seems to me that he was an ADULT.
“Culture wars” Part 2 – In more than 30 years as a volunteer I have NEVER had a mother say “I do not want my son in your Cub Pack or Scout Troop becuase you do NOT have a gay leader” – - – In fact I have had many parents say “the day you bring in the gay leadrs is the day we take our sons OUT”
Participation in Scouting is down from the 60-70% of boys in the 1950s-1960s to probably 20-25% now. There have been a few other changes in society since then, too. More Little League, more fall baseball, more soccer, more karate & martial arts, more band, more, more, more – the very issue that has been in the news so much lately – parents are “over-programming” the lives of their “hyper-achiever” children. Add to that the plethora of video games, computer games, and other legal (and otherwise) diversions. I suggest that these are more “to blame” for the decrease ni youth in Scouting than the decades old belief in a supreme being and decades old “no gay leaders” stance.
Volunteerism & community involvement of adults, families and individual youth as a whole has dropped dramatically throughout the country. You cannot blame the incredible drop in volunteerism theat has caused Kiwanis Clubs, Lions Clubs, volunteer fire departments and rescue squads – as well as in Scouting – on the BSA.
Scouting is NOT for every boy – and that has NOTHING to do with belief in a supreme being nor with Scouting not allowing gay leaders.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:22 pm
M Franklin:
You’re wrong on that last point. I don’t know if my son would be interested or not, but the Scout’s positions takes them entirely off the table. It’s not something I’d mention, and if he brought it up I’d forbid it. Multiply that by millions.
October 17th, 2006 at 10:48 pm
I think M Franklin hit the nail right on the head, while everybody else couldn’t even find the hammer. For all you blog commentors who somehow think that Christianity and not being pro-gay can have this level of impact, well you need to get out and about a whole lot more.
Back when scouting was big, kids did many other things that hardly anybody does anymore, like for example, play outside all the time. It must be the negative influence of Christians and anti-gay people that’s resulted in kids not doing that nearly as much now as in the past. Oh yeah, that must also be why cowboy movies aren’t very popular with kids anymore.
Now how stupid did that cause and effect thought process sound – about the same as your boy scout logic?
October 18th, 2006 at 1:34 am
[...] Staying on the right and just path, here’s a head up to a post by Sean Aqui at Donkelphant about the Boy Scouts. Be careful what you ask for, because you might not like what you get. [...]
October 18th, 2006 at 8:39 am
I have no doubt that the number of Scouts with parents that vote Democrat has substantially declined. Whether this is due to the gay policy or not is hard to tell given the numerous variable on the table, but again, I concur with Lewis & Franklin that the impact is probably only to the margins and not the center. Regionally, though, local governments can make life more difficult for the scouts, which is their perogative. It won’t be the first time or the last time individuals & organizations feel market consequences for abiding by Christian ideals. I suggest that while BSA’s market share may have decreased, they have solidified their core consumers and increased their longevity with the gay policy.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:57 pm
OK, I too am writing as a 55 year old Eagle Scout, Order of the Arrow and former Sr. Patrol Leader. I have two observations –
Scouting was started by Lord Baden Powell because of his dismay at the ineptness of British recruits during the Boer War. Scouts has always been about self-sufficiency and always had a sort of paramilitary structure. For me, moral rectitude was not about religious belief (although I earned the Catholic scouting award) or sexual preference. Scouts inspired me to be reverent to all that deserves respect — including democratic traditions, moral leaders and the natural world. This is not the same as being religious.
Secondly, when my sons were in scouting, the NEW scouts allowed female leaders. My sons’ scoutmaster and assistant scoutmaster ended up in an affair and expecting a child. Is it more troubling or moral to have gay leaders supervising my children than heterosexuals?
I am much more concerned with leaders’ attitude and actions than with their orientation.
As Barry Goldwater said about whether gays should be in the military, “I only care if they shoot straight, not whether they are straight.”
October 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pm
Am I the only one that remembers many vignettes involving scout leaders who were also pedophiles? I think that can of worms may turn more people off than the fact that they don’t allow gays.
However, my experience in the girl scouts, coupled with my younger brothers’ experiences in the boy scouts leads me to another conclusion about their waning memberships. Where we grew up, almost all the kids were in scouts when we first started school, but kids leave in order to participate in other stuff, and after awhile, all that’s left are socially awkward kids and leaders on power trips. I think most kids quit because of the other kids or leaders in their troops – individuals who are weird or mean – not because of the organization. Also there are so many other options for kids extracurricular activities now.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Franklin is certain correct in the vast number of faiths that have awards for Boy Scouts – hERE IS A PARTIAL LIST:
African Methodist Episcopal Church
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church
Armenian Apostolic Church of America
Armenian Church of America
Association of Unity Churches
Baha’i
Baptist
Buddhist
Catholic, Eastern
Catholic, Roman
Disciples of Christ
Christian Methodist Episcopal Church
Churches of Christ
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Eastern Orthodox
Episcopal
First Church of Christ, Scientist
General Church of The New Jerusalem
Hindu
Islamic
Jewish
Lutheran
Meher Baba
Moravian
Polish National Catholic
Presbyterian Church
Protestant
Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Salvation Army
United Church of Christ
United Methodist
Zoroastrian
SO – When critics say the Scout require a belief in God – and when you examine this listing – Do ANY OF THOSE FAITHS LISTED have a different “god” or a markedly different belief? OBVIOUSLY YES!
So the argument that the BSA is solely a Christian organization is BUNK!
October 19th, 2006 at 3:37 am
Completely agree with the post, though as someone who’s never been in the Scouts, I have to say that I’m grateful that the case came before the Supreme Court so that the legal precedent could be firmly set, even if the ultimate result does end up hurting them. The Scouts are an organization who cannot possibly benefit from this sort of discrimination, but it’s important for private organizations to have the freedom to make the choice themselves without government intervention.
October 19th, 2006 at 8:55 am
The case didn’t come before SCOTUS. They refused to take the case. No precedent has been set. SCOTUS may very well have not taken the case because they didn’t like the facts which may have forced them into ruling against the BSA and thus setting precedent.
October 21st, 2006 at 9:35 pm
Here is a late addition.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-scouts21oct21,0,6146565.story?coll=la-home-headlines
Boy Scouts can earn badges for woodcarving, raising rabbits and firing shotguns.
But in the Los Angeles area, Scouts will now be able to earn their stripes by proselytizing about the evils of copyright piracy.
Officials with the local Boy Scouts and the Motion Picture Assn. of America on Friday unveiled the Respect Copyrights Activity Patch â€â€? emblazoned with a large circle “C” copyright sign along with a film reel and musical notes.
The 52,000 Scouts who are eligible may earn the patch by participating in a curriculum produced by the MPAA. To earn the badge, Scouts must participate in several activities including creating a video public-service announcement and visiting a video-sharing website to identify which materials are copyrighted. They may also watch a movie and discuss how people behind the scenes would be harmed if the film were pirated.
Officials at the Scouts’ Los Angeles Area Council said they approached the MPAA with the idea nine months ago, emphasizing that the entertainment industry lobbying group did not make financial donations to secure the badge program.
The inspiration for the new badge came from Hong Kong, where the local Boy Scouts organization had its members pledge not to use or buy pirated materials. In addition, the Scouts agreed to search Internet file-sharing sites and turn in sites and users they see violating the law. The campaign was launched at a stadium before a slew of pop stars where the so-called “youth ambassadors” pledged to stem the rise piracy.
The move raised concerns from civil libertarians, who feared the group was creating thousands of young spies to snitch on copyright abusers.
Stephanie Scott, a mother of two Boy Scouts, said the anti-piracy badge has something other Scouting activities lack. “This one is tailor-made for the city boy in L.A.,” she said. “Scouts may just as soon go for this one rather than Wilderness Survival.”
MPAA Chairman Dan Glickman said partnering with the Boy Scouts made sense because so much of the pirating was being done by teenagers. “The truth is: So many kids today are savvy with computers and Internet technology and can download anything,” he said.
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:37 am
Today’s BSA-the Hitler Youth and Young Pioneers live on!
I have nothing but contempt for the interjection of religion and snitchery/corporate whoring into the organization. I cannot imagine these new tendencies being a big boon to Scouting, which undoubtedly once did help many a young man become something more than he’d have been without it.
November 29th, 2006 at 8:35 pm
It is a preposterous distortion of plain language to suggest that the expression “morally straight” does not include sexual morality.