Comments on: Iraqis Want Us Out http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/ Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable. Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:46:37 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Alan Stewart Carl http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120556 Alan Stewart Carl Thu, 23 Nov 2006 05:10:31 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120556 I think perhaps we should completly redefine the objective in Iraq. The issue now is not setting up a democratic government. The objective has become ensuring Iraq 1) isn't a threat to our security and 2) isn't a threat to destablize the region. From a strategic standpoint, it really doesn't matter why we went in or how we managed to screw it up so badly. What matters is how do we leave without leaving a mess so big that it could threaten our future security and/or the stability of the region. It's not about "saving face." There's no "face" left to save. It's about taking care of our mess now and not pretending like it'll go away the minute we do. There are very strong strategic and moral reasons to stay that have little to do with why we went in almost four years ago. It's really a whole new problem--one of our own creating but also one that's our responsibility. I think perhaps we should completly redefine the objective in Iraq. The issue now is not setting up a democratic government. The objective has become ensuring Iraq 1) isn’t a threat to our security and 2) isn’t a threat to destablize the region.

From a strategic standpoint, it really doesn’t matter why we went in or how we managed to screw it up so badly. What matters is how do we leave without leaving a mess so big that it could threaten our future security and/or the stability of the region. It’s not about “saving face.” There’s no “face” left to save. It’s about taking care of our mess now and not pretending like it’ll go away the minute we do. There are very strong strategic and moral reasons to stay that have little to do with why we went in almost four years ago. It’s really a whole new problem–one of our own creating but also one that’s our responsibility.

]]> By: Joshua http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120533 Joshua Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:01:10 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120533 In terms of the larger picture of the Long War, when we first invaded Iraq we, as a nation, were still very much in the dark about what we're really up against. The more we have learned about the global Islamic supremacist threat - admittedly due in part to our experience in Iraq - the more Operation Iraqi Freedom seems like a strategic blunder. We're attempting to democratize the Muslim world, all but oblivious to the growing power of Islamic supremacists in the West, particularly in Europe, and to how globalization (or to be more precise, global connectivity made possible by 21st century technology) has enabled this growth. Instead of a pro-democracy offensive, what we really need is an anti-<i>shari'a</i> defensive. Granted, that is hindsight talking, and hindsight is always 20/20. Still, it makes little sense for America to stay a course that was charted in the dark. In terms of the larger picture of the Long War, when we first invaded Iraq we, as a nation, were still very much in the dark about what we’re really up against. The more we have learned about the global Islamic supremacist threat – admittedly due in part to our experience in Iraq – the more Operation Iraqi Freedom seems like a strategic blunder. We’re attempting to democratize the Muslim world, all but oblivious to the growing power of Islamic supremacists in the West, particularly in Europe, and to how globalization (or to be more precise, global connectivity made possible by 21st century technology) has enabled this growth. Instead of a pro-democracy offensive, what we really need is an anti-shari’a defensive.

Granted, that is hindsight talking, and hindsight is always 20/20. Still, it makes little sense for America to stay a course that was charted in the dark.

]]> By: BenG http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120501 BenG Thu, 23 Nov 2006 02:29:33 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120501 You all make good points, but if you measure wrong to began with, alot of hard work will be wasted. So, we're all trying to make sense out of a nonsensical attempt at fighting terrorism. I don't understand what could be legitgimate about the new Iraqi govnmt, and how could it be "dedicated to real reform" if the only thing propping it up is the US army. The only people that matter to a govnmt is the people it represents, in a democracy it should BE the people. So it's the gov. and the people of Iraq that must determine their outcome. Any US involvement, in my opinion, is simply a way to rationalize a face saving withdrawl, and to do something so as not to feel too guilty about all of the carnage. That's not a win, not a loss, just gettin the hell out of a place you shouldn't have been in the first place. You all make good points, but if you measure wrong to began with, alot of hard work will be wasted. So, we’re all trying to make sense out of a nonsensical attempt at fighting terrorism.
I don’t understand what could be legitgimate about the new Iraqi govnmt, and how could it be “dedicated to real reform” if the only thing propping it up is the US army. The only people that matter to a govnmt is the people it represents, in a democracy it should BE the people. So it’s the gov. and the people of Iraq that must determine their outcome. Any US involvement, in my opinion, is simply a way to rationalize a face saving withdrawl, and to do something so as not to feel too guilty about all of the carnage. That’s not a win, not a loss, just gettin the hell out of a place you shouldn’t have been in the first place.

]]> By: Jimmy the Dhimmi http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120220 Jimmy the Dhimmi Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:43:07 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120220 "Get things worked out"? Thats a nice way of putting it. Sure, the situation may resolve itself in a shorter period of time, sort of how Hiroshima and Nagasaki solved WWII rather abruptly. In other words, they will mercelessly fight eachother until one side is completely wiped out. At this point, I don't give a crap if thats what going to happen, since the people appear to prefer death squads rather than deal with an the presence of a relatively benign infidel army. The real problem is, that after all of this "working out," I doubt that whichever side is victorious and takes over the country will become an ally in the war on terrorism. Pick your poison: Sunni Al-Queda types or Iranian backed Hezbollah types. Unfortunately, a continuing U.S. presence backing up a legitimate Iraqi parliament dedicated to real reform may be the only option at this point. “Get things worked out”? Thats a nice way of putting it. Sure, the situation may resolve itself in a shorter period of time, sort of how Hiroshima and Nagasaki solved WWII rather abruptly. In other words, they will mercelessly fight eachother until one side is completely wiped out.

At this point, I don’t give a crap if thats what going to happen, since the people appear to prefer death squads rather than deal with an the presence of a relatively benign infidel army.

The real problem is, that after all of this “working out,” I doubt that whichever side is victorious and takes over the country will become an ally in the war on terrorism. Pick your poison: Sunni Al-Queda types or Iranian backed Hezbollah types. Unfortunately, a continuing U.S. presence backing up a legitimate Iraqi parliament dedicated to real reform may be the only option at this point.

]]> By: Alan Stewart Carl http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120209 Alan Stewart Carl Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:59:54 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120209 I don't think they'll work out their own form of democracy. I think they'll end up with a new form of totalitarianism. If the Iraqis want us out, their government should ask us to leave. But the government won't because, without us, they're toast. Our absence won't pressure them to take responsibility. Our absence would be their death. I don’t think they’ll work out their own form of democracy. I think they’ll end up with a new form of totalitarianism. If the Iraqis want us out, their government should ask us to leave. But the government won’t because, without us, they’re toast. Our absence won’t pressure them to take responsibility. Our absence would be their death.

]]> By: Justin Gardner http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120201 Justin Gardner Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:32:49 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120201 Listen, is it more or less likely that these warring factions will cooperate if we're there or not there? My guess is that may get bloodier after we leave, but they'll eventually get things worked out in a shorter period of time than if we just stay in there and provide an easy target for both sides. In short, we're just prologing an inevitable fight that these two sides have been wanting to have for a long, long, long time. It's time for us to step out of the way and allow them to try and work it out. Listen, is it more or less likely that these warring factions will cooperate if we’re there or not there?

My guess is that may get bloodier after we leave, but they’ll eventually get things worked out in a shorter period of time than if we just stay in there and provide an easy target for both sides.

In short, we’re just prologing an inevitable fight that these two sides have been wanting to have for a long, long, long time. It’s time for us to step out of the way and allow them to try and work it out.

]]> By: Jimmy the Dhimmi http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120196 Jimmy the Dhimmi Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:16:10 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120196 The biggest misunderestimation by President Bush about Iraq was that modern Arab Islamic culture is capable of maintaining a peaceful, tolerant society. He always was hopeful towards the prospect of human freedom in the middle east; well, thats too bad because Arabia is full of Barbarians who adhere to a diabolical, pre-medeival ideology. To those Shiites who say attacks on U.S. soldiers are justified - the same soldiers who liberated them from their greatest oppressor - to hell with them. The only thing that is necessary for Iraq is that the civil authorities there use their power to fight trans-national terrorismrather than support or look away from it. At this point I don't give a crap if the religious sects tear each other to pieces. If Iraq becomes a haven for anti-American terrorists after we leave, then its time to bring back the carpet-bombs. The Iraqi people should be made aware of this before we fulfill their wishes and get out. The biggest misunderestimation by President Bush about Iraq was that modern Arab Islamic culture is capable of maintaining a peaceful, tolerant society. He always was hopeful towards the prospect of human freedom in the middle east; well, thats too bad because Arabia is full of Barbarians who adhere to a diabolical, pre-medeival ideology.

To those Shiites who say attacks on U.S. soldiers are justified – the same soldiers who liberated them from their greatest oppressor – to hell with them.

The only thing that is necessary for Iraq is that the civil authorities there use their power to fight trans-national terrorismrather than support or look away from it. At this point I don’t give a crap if the religious sects tear each other to pieces.

If Iraq becomes a haven for anti-American terrorists after we leave, then its time to bring back the carpet-bombs. The Iraqi people should be made aware of this before we fulfill their wishes and get out.

]]> By: Ima Boozer http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120148 Ima Boozer Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:39:48 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120148 D. Donnell is probably correct that a departure by US troops will probably not cause peace between the Shiites and Sunnis. There is a strong historical emnity between these sects and Saddam's overwhelming support of his own Sunni sect probably exacerbated this rift. However, before our invasion many people in the larger cities had learned to live peaceably with believers of the other sect and there was much inter-marriage between sects. Sadly our style of governance has helped destroy whatever inter-sect relationships that may have existed pre-occupation. D. Donnell is probably correct that a departure by US troops will probably not cause peace between the Shiites and Sunnis. There is a strong historical emnity between these sects and Saddam’s overwhelming support of his own Sunni sect probably exacerbated this rift. However, before our invasion many people in the larger cities had learned to live peaceably with believers of the other sect and there was much inter-marriage between sects. Sadly our style of governance has helped destroy whatever inter-sect relationships that may have existed pre-occupation.

]]> By: D.Donnell http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120116 D.Donnell Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:34:49 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120116 Justin Gardner writes: "[...] we can’t be shy about letting the Iraqis find their own definition [of democracy]. And [...] if we let them do that, it’s going to be much more likely that they become friends rather than foes. Just a hunch." Oy--'friendship' between the Shiites & Sunnis? In what video game version of Iraq? While I agree with the inevitable need to get out of Iraq, the "hunch" above seems to be about the most jaw-droppingly naive comment I've read about Iraq since the original rationales for going into Iraq. m.takhallus's 5 sentences above say it all. Justin Gardner writes:

“[...] we can’t be shy about letting the Iraqis find their
own definition [of democracy]. And [...] if we let them
do that, it’s going to be much more likely that they
become friends rather than foes. Just a hunch.”

Oy–’friendship’ between the Shiites & Sunnis?

In what video game version of Iraq?

While I agree with the inevitable need to get out of Iraq, the “hunch” above seems to be about the most jaw-droppingly naive comment I’ve read about Iraq since the original rationales for going into Iraq.

m.takhallus’s 5 sentences above say it all.

]]> By: m.takhallus http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/comment-page-1/#comment-120105 m.takhallus Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:02:08 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2006/11/22/iraqis-want-us-out/#comment-120105 I don't have a lot of confidence in polls of Iraqis. I don't think we have much of a baseline for comparison. And I don't believe Iraqis can be relied on to be honest given the various threats that surround them. However, it almost doesn't matter if they're saying "Get out" because of genuine conviction or only because it seems like the safe answer to give. In the end it amounts to a civil society that has no capacity to offer us the support without which our mission in Iraq is futile. I don’t have a lot of confidence in polls of Iraqis. I don’t think we have much of a baseline for comparison. And I don’t believe Iraqis can be relied on to be honest given the various threats that surround them.

However, it almost doesn’t matter if they’re saying “Get out” because of genuine conviction or only because it seems like the safe answer to give. In the end it amounts to a civil society that has no capacity to offer us the support without which our mission in Iraq is futile.

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