Comments on: Hama Complex http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/ Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable. Mon, 23 Nov 2009 16:24:43 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: BenG http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-202192 BenG Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:24:33 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/#comment-202192 Lewis, is this the message that you come away with from that post? That is as interesting as this post is compelling. I'll have to read on and see how my opinion evolves on this one. One obvious question comes to mind; have we hurt or helped the road to Hamas happening again in Iraq, which is the unfortunate outcome that this writer is afraid of. To presume that the west could, or should, try to 'come to the rescue' of these people who are so oppressed by their governments, or the lack of western style leadership, is maybe at the heart of our problems dealing with that part of the world. To me it rings as loudly ignorant and arrogant as the crusades did 1000 years ago in the name of religion. And here's the elephant in the room... Is the entire reason for our involvement in the Middle East due to the fact that the Jews need to be in the 'Holy Land' ? And is there a group of overzealous white, Anglo-Saxon westerners that will do whatever they can to see it happen? Or is it simply in our 'best interests', ie: OIL - that we wage this war? Either answer doesn't seem to be going over very well with the people who live there, and we're seriously hurting anyone that may have once called us their friend. Mission accomplished ? Oh yes, Cicero, brilliant job. Lewis, is this the message that you come away with from that post? That is as interesting as this post is compelling. I’ll have to read on and see how my opinion evolves on this one.
One obvious question comes to mind; have we hurt or helped the road to Hamas happening again in Iraq, which is the unfortunate outcome that this writer is afraid of.
To presume that the west could, or should, try to ‘come to the rescue’ of these people who are so oppressed by their governments, or the lack of western style leadership, is maybe at the heart of our problems dealing with that part of the world. To me it rings as loudly ignorant and arrogant as the crusades did 1000 years ago in the name of religion. And here’s the elephant in the room…
Is the entire reason for our involvement in the Middle East due to the fact that the Jews need to be in the ‘Holy Land’ ? And is there a group of overzealous white, Anglo-Saxon westerners that will do whatever they can to see it happen? Or is it simply in our ‘best interests’, ie: OIL – that we wage this war?
Either answer doesn’t seem to be going over very well with the people who live there, and we’re seriously hurting anyone that may have once called us their friend. Mission accomplished ?
Oh yes, Cicero, brilliant job.

]]> By: Bob J Young http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-202187 Bob J Young Sun, 28 Jan 2007 15:19:40 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/#comment-202187 It is an excellent post, and I agree we no longer have the stomach for a Dresden or Hiroshima. But as I read your posting, I couldn't help shake the feeling that there is something deeper going on. That you were only looking at one layer of an onion. There are a lot of other layers There is the vacuum left from having no real government for several year. Making Iraq like New Orleans after Katrina. We don't want them to return to their previous stable society (Dictatorship) and they don't seem to be able to grasp the one we are trying to impose. There is the fact that we are occupiers not a local government. We are not viewed as a legitimate agency for forcing order. There is the whole “blood feudâ€Â? mentality. What we would label collateral damage, they would call the start of a blood feud. There is the fact that our resources are not unlimited, and they should be used for fights that we can actually win. As you talked about Hama I was thinking of Jarred Diamonds description of the collapse of Rwandan society. There was a society divided up along tribal line and (at the time) the world saw it as a brutal civil war and genocide. But when things settled down and the anthropologist and scientist went back in, a second story emerged. Part of what sparked Rwanda's civil war was overpopulation. Too many people, caused a fight over food producing resources, but once rule of law broke down they proceeded to intentionally cull their own populations. Even in villages that were not divided ethnically, the old, the weak, widows and orphans were killed. While the Rwandans had run out of places to grow food , in the back of everyones mind in Iraq is the oil. If we let the “insurgenceâ€Â? occupy a city, then firebombed it, we would certainly scare the crap out of the locals. But in the end it would probably just convince them not to exclusively occupy any more cities. They have pretty much already learned not to confront us in such a way that air power and artillery can be used. It is an excellent post, and I agree we no longer have the stomach for a Dresden or Hiroshima. But as I read your posting, I couldn’t help shake the feeling that there is something deeper going on. That you were only looking at one layer of an onion. There are a lot of other layers

There is the vacuum left from having no real government for several year. Making Iraq like New Orleans after Katrina. We don’t want them to return to their previous stable society (Dictatorship) and they don’t seem to be able to grasp the one we are trying to impose.

There is the fact that we are occupiers not a local government. We are not viewed as a legitimate agency for forcing order.

There is the whole “blood feud� mentality. What we would label collateral damage, they would call the start of a blood feud.

There is the fact that our resources are not unlimited, and they should be used for fights that we can actually win.

As you talked about Hama I was thinking of Jarred Diamonds description of the collapse of Rwandan society.

There was a society divided up along tribal line and (at the time) the world saw it as a brutal civil war and genocide. But when things settled down and the anthropologist and scientist went back in, a second story emerged.

Part of what sparked Rwanda’s civil war was overpopulation. Too many people, caused a fight over food producing resources, but once rule of law broke down they proceeded to intentionally cull their own populations. Even in villages that were not divided ethnically, the old, the weak, widows and orphans were killed.

While the Rwandans had run out of places to grow food , in the back of everyones mind in Iraq is the oil.

If we let the “insurgence� occupy a city, then firebombed it, we would certainly scare the crap out of the locals. But in the end it would probably just convince them not to exclusively occupy any more cities. They have pretty much already learned not to confront us in such a way that air power and artillery can be used.

]]> By: Lewis http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-201549 Lewis Sun, 28 Jan 2007 04:15:24 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/#comment-201549 Finally, someone's noticed the elephant in the room. Is it reasonable to expect that modern civilization can safely circle the wagons and wait for the dysfunctional middle east to sort things out by themselves? I believe this is the great hope of the anti-war crowd. History if full of similar examples that shows how this type of hope is false and dangerous. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing. Finally, someone’s noticed the elephant in the room.

Is it reasonable to expect that modern civilization can safely circle the wagons and wait for the dysfunctional middle east to sort things out by themselves? I believe this is the great hope of the anti-war crowd.

History if full of similar examples that shows how this type of hope is false and dangerous. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

]]> By: david http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/comment-page-1/#comment-200130 david Sat, 27 Jan 2007 09:24:38 +0000 http://donklephant.com/2007/01/26/hama-complex/#comment-200130 I must say, that this is probably the best analysis on Iraq and its chance of having a democratic political system that I have ever read. Keep up the good work. I must say, that this is probably the best analysis on Iraq and its chance of having a democratic political system that I have ever read. Keep up the good work.

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