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	<title>Comments on: The AntiBush</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; It&#8217;s still the war, stupid.</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-394962</link>
		<dc:creator>Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; It&#8217;s still the war, stupid.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:55:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-394962</guid>
		<description>[...] a Republican or Independent in order to maintain divided government into 2009. I was pushing Chuck Hagel until he flaked out, which left me with Ron Paul by default, but I really hoped Bloomberg would [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a Republican or Independent in order to maintain divided government into 2009. I was pushing Chuck Hagel until he flaked out, which left me with Ron Paul by default, but I really hoped Bloomberg would [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380281</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Aug 2007 01:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380281</guid>
		<description>The overstatement isn&#039;t that great. What businesses wouldn&#039;t be happy with the elimination of the FDA, FTC, EPA and OSHA? Do you think the general public would be pleased with those actions or his desire to eliminate Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The overstatement isn&#8217;t that great. What businesses wouldn&#8217;t be happy with the elimination of the FDA, FTC, EPA and OSHA? Do you think the general public would be pleased with those actions or his desire to eliminate Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid?</p>
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		<title>By: dj</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380256</link>
		<dc:creator>dj</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:56:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380256</guid>
		<description>Why would a moderate independent be interested in voting for someone whose positions are to completely eliminate every government department that is not directly involved in defense, border control and the three main branches of government? Most Americans have the common sense to realize that they do not as individuals have the time or resources to stand up to large corporate interests that would have free rein under Ron Paulâ€™s philosophy.

Thank you, Jim. I respect many of Paul&#039;s positions, but his glib insistence that eliminating nearly all government agencies will solve our problems is naive at best. The American public may be skeptical (rightfully so) of those agencies&#039; effectiveness, but I think the majority of people realize that simply shutting those down will cause more problems than it solves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would a moderate independent be interested in voting for someone whose positions are to completely eliminate every government department that is not directly involved in defense, border control and the three main branches of government? Most Americans have the common sense to realize that they do not as individuals have the time or resources to stand up to large corporate interests that would have free rein under Ron Paulâ€™s philosophy.</p>
<p>Thank you, Jim. I respect many of Paul&#8217;s positions, but his glib insistence that eliminating nearly all government agencies will solve our problems is naive at best. The American public may be skeptical (rightfully so) of those agencies&#8217; effectiveness, but I think the majority of people realize that simply shutting those down will cause more problems than it solves.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380255</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 15:51:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380255</guid>
		<description>Although exaggerating his positions, and grossly overstating the risks from large corporate interests under a Ron Paul administration (Corporations get much more benefit, breaks, and influence from a Big Government/ Big Business Republican like Bush than they would ever get under a free marketeer like Paul), Jim does put his finger squarely on the problem about the electability of Ron Paul. 

Hagel has to get into this race.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although exaggerating his positions, and grossly overstating the risks from large corporate interests under a Ron Paul administration (Corporations get much more benefit, breaks, and influence from a Big Government/ Big Business Republican like Bush than they would ever get under a free marketeer like Paul), Jim does put his finger squarely on the problem about the electability of Ron Paul. </p>
<p>Hagel has to get into this race.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380230</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Aug 2007 01:24:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380230</guid>
		<description>Why would a moderate independent be interested in voting for someone whose positions are to completely eliminate every government department that is not directly involved in defense, border control and the three main branches of government? Most Americans have the common sense to realize that they do not as individuals have the time or resources to stand up to large corporate interests that would have free rein under Ron Paul&#039;s philosophy.

And there&#039;s this bit to which I have one answer

&lt;blockquote&gt;

and that answer is the Supreme Court.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why would a moderate independent be interested in voting for someone whose positions are to completely eliminate every government department that is not directly involved in defense, border control and the three main branches of government? Most Americans have the common sense to realize that they do not as individuals have the time or resources to stand up to large corporate interests that would have free rein under Ron Paul&#8217;s philosophy.</p>
<p>And there&#8217;s this bit to which I have one answer</p>
<blockquote>
<p>and that answer is the Supreme Court.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380221</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:52:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380221</guid>
		<description>bruin606,
Thanks for the comment. Everyone has their role to play, including the PDW (Partisan Dead Weight). Their role, from either party, is to not do anything except to continue to provide ballast by canceling each other out. 

The small independent minority of the electorate that is not &quot;Independent in Name Only&quot; and actually will change their vote between parties based on what is good for the country cannot have an effect unless the PDW is roughly balanced and the independent sliver in the middle votes more or less in concert. That is what happened in the 2006 mid-terms. For those Independents I offer this argument:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
1) Our &quot;Checks and Balances&quot; actually check and balance better when there is divided government. Not so much with single party control of all three branches.

2)The Dems are a lock to hold Congress in 2008. Single party Dem control  of all branches will be as bad as single party Rep control. R or D, they are still politicians and still face the same big money lobbyist temptations in Washington. Just different lobbyists are favored.

3) Therefore, If you want to maintain the benefits of divided government in 2009, you will have to vote for the Republican presidential candidate regardless of who it is.

4) If you want to have something to say about who that Republican candidate will be, then you will need to register Republican and vote in the Republican primaries.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That is what I think the real moderate independents should do. I am not asking it of partisan dead weight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>bruin606,<br />
Thanks for the comment. Everyone has their role to play, including the PDW (Partisan Dead Weight). Their role, from either party, is to not do anything except to continue to provide ballast by canceling each other out. </p>
<p>The small independent minority of the electorate that is not &#8220;Independent in Name Only&#8221; and actually will change their vote between parties based on what is good for the country cannot have an effect unless the PDW is roughly balanced and the independent sliver in the middle votes more or less in concert. That is what happened in the 2006 mid-terms. For those Independents I offer this argument:</p>
<blockquote><p>
1) Our &#8220;Checks and Balances&#8221; actually check and balance better when there is divided government. Not so much with single party control of all three branches.</p>
<p>2)The Dems are a lock to hold Congress in 2008. Single party Dem control  of all branches will be as bad as single party Rep control. R or D, they are still politicians and still face the same big money lobbyist temptations in Washington. Just different lobbyists are favored.</p>
<p>3) Therefore, If you want to maintain the benefits of divided government in 2009, you will have to vote for the Republican presidential candidate regardless of who it is.</p>
<p>4) If you want to have something to say about who that Republican candidate will be, then you will need to register Republican and vote in the Republican primaries.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That is what I think the real moderate independents should do. I am not asking it of partisan dead weight.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380220</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 21:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380220</guid>
		<description>Matt,
I think the only thing we disagree about is who has the better name recognition and the greater potential draw from independents and Dems.  I don&#039;t think there have been any polls on that (both candidates currently being  marginalized by the MSM), so it is just a matter of opinion. Time will tell. Pauls recognition comes exclusively from the debates. If Hagel gets on the Republican dais and starts ripping a few new ones, his recognition will skyrocket.  Right or wrong, Hagel is considered a &quot;serious&quot; candidate by the MSM, while Paul is not there yet. 

I do think there is or should be a significant overlap between Hagel and Paul supporters. My observation is that both constituencies tend to be more issue/objective oriented rather than personalty driven. For either, the most important tactic right now is to get Independents, Libertarians, and even Democrats to register Republican for the primaries. I explored this meme in an &lt;a href=&quot;http://westanddivided.blogspot.com/2007/06/political-blogger-switches-party.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;earlier post&lt;/a&gt; which I&#039;ll just quote here:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;Tactically this is it how it can play out: Ron Paul and Chuck Hagel are my top Republican presidential hopefuls. I&#039;d have added Bloomberg to that list if he had stayed with the GOP. Hagel remains undeclared, but is clearly a stronger national candidate than either Paul or Bloomberg. Interestingly, while sitting on the sidelines, he may find the path for a Republican run cleared by the surprising support garnered by Ron Paul, and the foundation for a potential Independent run built by the Bloomberg announcement. Unity08 is building the infrastructure and raising funds for a &quot;Unity ticket&quot;, but requires the ticket to be a mix of Republican, Democratic, and/or Independent candidates. Bloomberg&#039;s quick-change artistry opens the door for a Hagel/Bloomberg Unity08 ticket. By waiting to declare, Chuck may have some pretty good choices.

My first choice is to save the GOP. To do that, real conservatives and libertarians need to take back the Republican party from the Bushists. Michael Nystrom and Verbatim at the Daily Paul are promoting the right idea with this call to action &lt;a href=&quot;http://dailypaul.com/node/207&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Change Party Affiliation to Republican to Participate in Primaries&quot;&lt;/a&gt;:

This is an effort I can get behind. It is worth noting, that should the Paul candidacy falter, the base of enthusiastic Ron Paul supporters are a natural constituency for a Chuck Hagel run. In support of their efforts, I&#039;ll be posting the Daily Paul &quot;Call to Action&quot; badge in the sidebar of &lt;a href=&quot;http://westanddivided.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my blog, and encourage any other bloggers interested in saving the GOP to do the same.&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matt,<br />
I think the only thing we disagree about is who has the better name recognition and the greater potential draw from independents and Dems.  I don&#8217;t think there have been any polls on that (both candidates currently being  marginalized by the MSM), so it is just a matter of opinion. Time will tell. Pauls recognition comes exclusively from the debates. If Hagel gets on the Republican dais and starts ripping a few new ones, his recognition will skyrocket.  Right or wrong, Hagel is considered a &#8220;serious&#8221; candidate by the MSM, while Paul is not there yet. </p>
<p>I do think there is or should be a significant overlap between Hagel and Paul supporters. My observation is that both constituencies tend to be more issue/objective oriented rather than personalty driven. For either, the most important tactic right now is to get Independents, Libertarians, and even Democrats to register Republican for the primaries. I explored this meme in an <a href="http://westanddivided.blogspot.com/2007/06/political-blogger-switches-party.html" rel="nofollow">earlier post</a> which I&#8217;ll just quote here:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>Tactically this is it how it can play out: Ron Paul and Chuck Hagel are my top Republican presidential hopefuls. I&#8217;d have added Bloomberg to that list if he had stayed with the GOP. Hagel remains undeclared, but is clearly a stronger national candidate than either Paul or Bloomberg. Interestingly, while sitting on the sidelines, he may find the path for a Republican run cleared by the surprising support garnered by Ron Paul, and the foundation for a potential Independent run built by the Bloomberg announcement. Unity08 is building the infrastructure and raising funds for a &#8220;Unity ticket&#8221;, but requires the ticket to be a mix of Republican, Democratic, and/or Independent candidates. Bloomberg&#8217;s quick-change artistry opens the door for a Hagel/Bloomberg Unity08 ticket. By waiting to declare, Chuck may have some pretty good choices.</p>
<p>My first choice is to save the GOP. To do that, real conservatives and libertarians need to take back the Republican party from the Bushists. Michael Nystrom and Verbatim at the Daily Paul are promoting the right idea with this call to action <a href="http://dailypaul.com/node/207" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Change Party Affiliation to Republican to Participate in Primaries&#8221;</a>:</p>
<p>This is an effort I can get behind. It is worth noting, that should the Paul candidacy falter, the base of enthusiastic Ron Paul supporters are a natural constituency for a Chuck Hagel run. In support of their efforts, I&#8217;ll be posting the Daily Paul &#8220;Call to Action&#8221; badge in the sidebar of <a href="http://westanddivided.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">my blog, and encourage any other bloggers interested in saving the GOP to do the same.</a></i></p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: bruin606</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380196</link>
		<dc:creator>bruin606</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380196</guid>
		<description>Hagel himself says he is not &quot;anti-war.&quot; google it.
How is he more credible than clinton? He voted for the war resolution after weeks of complaining about it. On the vote before the war resolution the Senate considered a measure that would have made it more difficult for Bush to commit troops. Hagel voted against that too!

He  is a duplicitous politician with a messianic complex who talks about himself in the third person. Weird.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hagel himself says he is not &#8220;anti-war.&#8221; google it.<br />
How is he more credible than clinton? He voted for the war resolution after weeks of complaining about it. On the vote before the war resolution the Senate considered a measure that would have made it more difficult for Bush to commit troops. Hagel voted against that too!</p>
<p>He  is a duplicitous politician with a messianic complex who talks about himself in the third person. Weird.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Shelby</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380195</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Shelby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 02:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380195</guid>
		<description>MW, it&#039;s a good article.  I respect your insight and candor.  But I just don&#039;t think you are correct when you say that Hagel is more electable than Dr. Paul.  I&#039;d venture to say that Dr. Paul&#039;s name recognition is far higher than Mr. Hagel&#039;s.  And if it&#039;s not right now, the wave of passionate support he is receiving will translate into far more support than Mr. Hagel could hope to receive once the primaries come around.

Dr. Paul was one of Ronald Reagan&#039;s earliest supporters in Congress.  He is is a true Republican (which also happens to be a classical liberal ala Adam Smith).  

As I said, I respect you contention that Hagel has a better chance to lead American closer to how it needs to be (and I would, indeed, support Mr. Hagel is he got the nomination). But I also think that in addition to having more support in the Republican Party, you would find that Dr. Paul would have more support in the Democratic Party, the Libertarian Party, and other third parties.  I am just really unclear as to why you truly think Hagel has a better shot than Ron Paul.

Glad to see you are supporting Dr. Paul, though.  As I said, though, if Dr. Paul is out, and Hagel is still in, Hagel will receive my support.  I just think that any of Hagel&#039;s supporters will do the same for Ron Paul, something I don&#039;t believe you think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW, it&#8217;s a good article.  I respect your insight and candor.  But I just don&#8217;t think you are correct when you say that Hagel is more electable than Dr. Paul.  I&#8217;d venture to say that Dr. Paul&#8217;s name recognition is far higher than Mr. Hagel&#8217;s.  And if it&#8217;s not right now, the wave of passionate support he is receiving will translate into far more support than Mr. Hagel could hope to receive once the primaries come around.</p>
<p>Dr. Paul was one of Ronald Reagan&#8217;s earliest supporters in Congress.  He is is a true Republican (which also happens to be a classical liberal ala Adam Smith).  </p>
<p>As I said, I respect you contention that Hagel has a better chance to lead American closer to how it needs to be (and I would, indeed, support Mr. Hagel is he got the nomination). But I also think that in addition to having more support in the Republican Party, you would find that Dr. Paul would have more support in the Democratic Party, the Libertarian Party, and other third parties.  I am just really unclear as to why you truly think Hagel has a better shot than Ron Paul.</p>
<p>Glad to see you are supporting Dr. Paul, though.  As I said, though, if Dr. Paul is out, and Hagel is still in, Hagel will receive my support.  I just think that any of Hagel&#8217;s supporters will do the same for Ron Paul, something I don&#8217;t believe you think.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380185</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 22:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380185</guid>
		<description>Actually I do count Paul  as an &quot;AntiBush&quot;. Just not &quot;The AntiBush.&quot;In fact, I actually agree more with Ron Paul&#039;s positions overall than I do with Hagels. The operative word in my statement is &quot;credible&quot;. Not based on Paul&#039;s positions, or his sincerity, or his quality as person. It boils down to my practical assessment of one word - electability.  I know Paul supporters will disagree with me on this, but I don&#039;t think Paul can be elected President. Hagel can. It is just that simple for me.  

That said, I support Paul&#039;s campaign, and in fact I am going to make a contribution to his campaign and would encourage others to do likewise. I think he is doing great work communicating libertarian ideas to the electorate.  He just cannot be elected. His success in motivating and inspiring passion in his supporters may be the only thing that saves the Republican party in 2008 - if that support can be transferred to the eventual nominee. Hagel is the only Republican that has any chance of retaining some of that Paul support in the Republican party. 

Let me be clear. I don&#039;t think Hagel has much of chance of getting the Republican nomination either. But if he does get it, he will be elected. I just think he is the Republicans only hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually I do count Paul  as an &#8220;AntiBush&#8221;. Just not &#8220;The AntiBush.&#8221;In fact, I actually agree more with Ron Paul&#8217;s positions overall than I do with Hagels. The operative word in my statement is &#8220;credible&#8221;. Not based on Paul&#8217;s positions, or his sincerity, or his quality as person. It boils down to my practical assessment of one word &#8211; electability.  I know Paul supporters will disagree with me on this, but I don&#8217;t think Paul can be elected President. Hagel can. It is just that simple for me.  </p>
<p>That said, I support Paul&#8217;s campaign, and in fact I am going to make a contribution to his campaign and would encourage others to do likewise. I think he is doing great work communicating libertarian ideas to the electorate.  He just cannot be elected. His success in motivating and inspiring passion in his supporters may be the only thing that saves the Republican party in 2008 &#8211; if that support can be transferred to the eventual nominee. Hagel is the only Republican that has any chance of retaining some of that Paul support in the Republican party. </p>
<p>Let me be clear. I don&#8217;t think Hagel has much of chance of getting the Republican nomination either. But if he does get it, he will be elected. I just think he is the Republicans only hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380180</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:41:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380180</guid>
		<description>Wouldn&#039;t Ron Paul bring about a Goldwater/Reagen like Republican administration?  Why do you not count him as an &quot;AntiBush?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wouldn&#8217;t Ron Paul bring about a Goldwater/Reagen like Republican administration?  Why do you not count him as an &#8220;AntiBush?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Doug D</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/comment-page-1/#comment-380178</link>
		<dc:creator>Doug D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2007/08/06/the-antibush/#comment-380178</guid>
		<description>Conservatives can keep waiting for Hagel, or Thompson, or Gingrich to drop down from on high and join the race and see how they fare, or they can get behind the candidate who is already running, has 30,000+ motivated volunteers (see Meetup.com), is already on the right side of the Iraq war, and is already the &quot;fusionist&quot; candidate with nearly impeccable fiscal and social conservative views.

Stand up for liberty -- join us in supporting Ron Paul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Conservatives can keep waiting for Hagel, or Thompson, or Gingrich to drop down from on high and join the race and see how they fare, or they can get behind the candidate who is already running, has 30,000+ motivated volunteers (see Meetup.com), is already on the right side of the Iraq war, and is already the &#8220;fusionist&#8221; candidate with nearly impeccable fiscal and social conservative views.</p>
<p>Stand up for liberty &#8212; join us in supporting Ron Paul.</p>
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