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	<title>Comments on: Democratic Activists Should Chill</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/comment-page-1/#comment-394274</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:16:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/#comment-394274</guid>
		<description>She absolutely  does not need a lead in pledged delegates. Pledged delegates have been shown to have  - at best - tenuous connection to the &quot;will of the voter&quot; after she won the Texas popular vote and Obama took more delegates. Pledged delegates are bullshit.  I mean that in the nicest possible way. If she takes a big  popular vote victory in Pa, takes a big popular vote victory in Puerto Rico, and Obama forces succeed in disenfranchising the voters of Mi and Fl, she should legitimately count those states popular votes in her total. That gives her the popular vote plurality overall when we get to Denver. Tht is much more indicative of the will of the voters than pledged delegates.  

The more I think about this - It&#039;s all over. Obama should pull out for the good of the party now and accept the VP role on a unity ticket.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>She absolutely  does not need a lead in pledged delegates. Pledged delegates have been shown to have  &#8211; at best &#8211; tenuous connection to the &#8220;will of the voter&#8221; after she won the Texas popular vote and Obama took more delegates. Pledged delegates are bullshit.  I mean that in the nicest possible way. If she takes a big  popular vote victory in Pa, takes a big popular vote victory in Puerto Rico, and Obama forces succeed in disenfranchising the voters of Mi and Fl, she should legitimately count those states popular votes in her total. That gives her the popular vote plurality overall when we get to Denver. Tht is much more indicative of the will of the voters than pledged delegates.  </p>
<p>The more I think about this &#8211; It&#8217;s all over. Obama should pull out for the good of the party now and accept the VP role on a unity ticket.</p>
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		<title>By: S.W. Anderson</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/comment-page-1/#comment-394248</link>
		<dc:creator>S.W. Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/#comment-394248</guid>
		<description>MW makes a good point, but I think there&#039;s a qualitative difference between the things Kos opposes and the divisions Clinton is plying and maybe broadening (no pun intended).

The Democratic Party is the country&#039;s lone surviving big-tent party. Radical right wingers took over the GOP 30 some years ago and have been running moderates out ever since, even as they continually push the party farther to the right. 

What this means is, you&#039;re inevtiably going to have policy differences of the kind Kos is pursuing. It&#039;s not an unhealthy or ruinous thing, although it has some potential to be counterproductive in presidential election years.

What Clinton is doing risks two longterm, even permanent, splits in the party. One cuts along racial lines. If Clinton and/or her surrogates keep up things like the Ferraro incident, she could really alienate African Americans. The other cuts along organizational lines. If Clinton loses the race for pledged delegates but seeks to win anyway by arm-twisting super delegates to overturn the party rank and file&#039;s decisions as rendered in primaries and caucuses over several months, she could split the party for years and make it impossible for a Democrat to win the White House this year. A whole lot of younger, first-time voters and some independents would be alienated. 

The bottom line is, Clinton has gotten every chance to build momentum, pull ahead and win big. She&#039;s even had help from Republicans cynically voting in Democratic primaries because they would rather mcCain run against her.  Yet, Clintin is still trailing and hanging on by the skin of her teeth.

Yes, some of the so-called Netroots get hot headed and go after Clinton out of proportion to what she herself has said and done. That&#039;s the nature of the Net and its younger and more passionate inhabitants. If Clinton is elected, she&#039;s sure to hear plenty more from them, so she better get used to it. 

The bottom line is, the Pennsylvania primary should absolutely be the end of the line for Clinton unless she wins a commanding victory, one that actually puts her ahead in pledged delegates, which I don&#039;t think is even possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MW makes a good point, but I think there&#8217;s a qualitative difference between the things Kos opposes and the divisions Clinton is plying and maybe broadening (no pun intended).</p>
<p>The Democratic Party is the country&#8217;s lone surviving big-tent party. Radical right wingers took over the GOP 30 some years ago and have been running moderates out ever since, even as they continually push the party farther to the right. </p>
<p>What this means is, you&#8217;re inevtiably going to have policy differences of the kind Kos is pursuing. It&#8217;s not an unhealthy or ruinous thing, although it has some potential to be counterproductive in presidential election years.</p>
<p>What Clinton is doing risks two longterm, even permanent, splits in the party. One cuts along racial lines. If Clinton and/or her surrogates keep up things like the Ferraro incident, she could really alienate African Americans. The other cuts along organizational lines. If Clinton loses the race for pledged delegates but seeks to win anyway by arm-twisting super delegates to overturn the party rank and file&#8217;s decisions as rendered in primaries and caucuses over several months, she could split the party for years and make it impossible for a Democrat to win the White House this year. A whole lot of younger, first-time voters and some independents would be alienated. </p>
<p>The bottom line is, Clinton has gotten every chance to build momentum, pull ahead and win big. She&#8217;s even had help from Republicans cynically voting in Democratic primaries because they would rather mcCain run against her.  Yet, Clintin is still trailing and hanging on by the skin of her teeth.</p>
<p>Yes, some of the so-called Netroots get hot headed and go after Clinton out of proportion to what she herself has said and done. That&#8217;s the nature of the Net and its younger and more passionate inhabitants. If Clinton is elected, she&#8217;s sure to hear plenty more from them, so she better get used to it. </p>
<p>The bottom line is, the Pennsylvania primary should absolutely be the end of the line for Clinton unless she wins a commanding victory, one that actually puts her ahead in pledged delegates, which I don&#8217;t think is even possible.</p>
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		<title>By: mw</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/comment-page-1/#comment-394230</link>
		<dc:creator>mw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Mar 2008 15:41:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/2008/03/18/democrat-activists-should-chill/#comment-394230</guid>
		<description>To this point -

Yesterday, Markos Moulitsas (Kos of Daily Kos) - lead dog of the Democratic Party activist wing - published a post entitled &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/17/12417/1285&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Clnton&#039;s Civil War&quot;&lt;/a&gt; 

Beside some real gems like this ...&lt;i&gt;&quot;She is willing -- nay, eager to split the party apart in her mad pursuit of power.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; or this &lt;i&gt;&quot;Clinton&#039;s campaign is counting on low-information Democratic voters selecting Clinton based on little more than name ID.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; Got that - Clinton supporters are &quot;low information&quot; voters (stupid) unlike the &quot;high information&quot; (smart) Obama supporters.  This is so over the top, it is laughable.  

Then - how about this for some some truly twisted logic.  - Kos embraces and amplifies Al Giordano&#039;s assertion:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;    &quot;DKos has been defined as a meeting ground not for every Democrat, but for the kind that wants to change the party... and blunt the influence of lobbyists, PACs and the neoliberal Democratic Leadership Council (DLC).&quot; - AG
    &quot;I would add one more item to the list above -- this site has also been hostile to the corrosive consultant class that gave us our timid and weak party until Howard Dean shook it up in 2004.&quot; - Kos&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Note that the things that Kos accepts as the defining characteristic of dKos  - are attacks on other Democrats. Thats what Kos says dKos is all about.

Yet somehow - This is &quot;Clinton&#039;s civil war&quot;.  How does that work?

I got no problem with the whole Kos  &quot;change from within&quot;   &quot;gate-crashing&quot; &quot;agents of party change&quot; stuff. But if that&#039;s really how he sees  himself and his blog, he just doesn&#039;t get to  blame Clinton for a &quot;civil war&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To this point -</p>
<p>Yesterday, Markos Moulitsas (Kos of Daily Kos) &#8211; lead dog of the Democratic Party activist wing &#8211; published a post entitled <a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/3/17/12417/1285" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Clnton&#8217;s Civil War&#8221;</a> </p>
<p>Beside some real gems like this &#8230;<i>&#8220;She is willing &#8212; nay, eager to split the party apart in her mad pursuit of power.&#8221;</i> or this <i>&#8220;Clinton&#8217;s campaign is counting on low-information Democratic voters selecting Clinton based on little more than name ID.&#8221;</i> Got that &#8211; Clinton supporters are &#8220;low information&#8221; voters (stupid) unlike the &#8220;high information&#8221; (smart) Obama supporters.  This is so over the top, it is laughable.  </p>
<p>Then &#8211; how about this for some some truly twisted logic.  &#8211; Kos embraces and amplifies Al Giordano&#8217;s assertion:</p>
<blockquote><p><i>    &#8220;DKos has been defined as a meeting ground not for every Democrat, but for the kind that wants to change the party&#8230; and blunt the influence of lobbyists, PACs and the neoliberal Democratic Leadership Council (DLC).&#8221; &#8211; AG<br />
    &#8220;I would add one more item to the list above &#8212; this site has also been hostile to the corrosive consultant class that gave us our timid and weak party until Howard Dean shook it up in 2004.&#8221; &#8211; Kos</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Note that the things that Kos accepts as the defining characteristic of dKos  &#8211; are attacks on other Democrats. Thats what Kos says dKos is all about.</p>
<p>Yet somehow &#8211; This is &#8220;Clinton&#8217;s civil war&#8221;.  How does that work?</p>
<p>I got no problem with the whole Kos  &#8220;change from within&#8221;   &#8220;gate-crashing&#8221; &#8220;agents of party change&#8221; stuff. But if that&#8217;s really how he sees  himself and his blog, he just doesn&#8217;t get to  blame Clinton for a &#8220;civil war&#8221;.</p>
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