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	<title>Comments on: The Clean Energy Scam</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/30/the-clean-energy-scam/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: 100fools.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dumb Ethanol Policies Continue Despite Evidence</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/30/the-clean-energy-scam/comment-page-1/#comment-469194</link>
		<dc:creator>100fools.com &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dumb Ethanol Policies Continue Despite Evidence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 03:20:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=5069#comment-469194</guid>
		<description>[...] said it before on this blog, but it bears repeating&#8230;the ethanol industry is not good for this [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] said it before on this blog, but it bears repeating&#8230;the ethanol industry is not good for this [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/30/the-clean-energy-scam/comment-page-1/#comment-395197</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=5069#comment-395197</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not just how much energy the plants yield when processed but how much energy is used in growing them. If the plants being grown basically only need to be planted and then cut to be harvested (and watered in extremely dry weather) then the ratio of energy yielded to energy invested is higher and that&#039;s the number that matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not just how much energy the plants yield when processed but how much energy is used in growing them. If the plants being grown basically only need to be planted and then cut to be harvested (and watered in extremely dry weather) then the ratio of energy yielded to energy invested is higher and that&#8217;s the number that matters.</p>
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		<title>By: kritter</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/30/the-clean-energy-scam/comment-page-1/#comment-395193</link>
		<dc:creator>kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:03:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=5069#comment-395193</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s basically my guess too. Sooner or later the market and technologicial advances are going to show us which few plants are the winners when it comes to making fuel from plants. I don&#039;t know enough to know which ones they&#039;ll be. But if there&#039;s a way to use simple, quick growing plants like grass, those do seem to have an inherent advantage over tempermental input-intensive plants like corn, and trees, which take longer to mature. Of course, the simpler plants don&#039;t yield products that are energy-dense, which corn does, and which palm kernel trees do. So we&#039;ll have to wait and see.

But here&#039;s the thing. Right now, folks are using what they they have a lot of and what&#039;s available in using corn and palm kernel oil. How likely is it that these plants turn out to be the optimal sources?

One way or the other, biofuels boil down to letting plants capture the sun&#039;s energy, and then harvesting that energy to use as our fuel. Some plants are going to do this more efficiently than others, and then from there some of the processes we develop to harvest that energy are going to be more efficient than others. For things like powering cars, we do need energy-dense fuel. So if we use corn and palm kernel oil, the stuff we extract is more energy dense than if we use grass. So if we use grass, then we have to come up with more efficient concentration processes than what corn performs, or what palm tree performs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s basically my guess too. Sooner or later the market and technologicial advances are going to show us which few plants are the winners when it comes to making fuel from plants. I don&#8217;t know enough to know which ones they&#8217;ll be. But if there&#8217;s a way to use simple, quick growing plants like grass, those do seem to have an inherent advantage over tempermental input-intensive plants like corn, and trees, which take longer to mature. Of course, the simpler plants don&#8217;t yield products that are energy-dense, which corn does, and which palm kernel trees do. So we&#8217;ll have to wait and see.</p>
<p>But here&#8217;s the thing. Right now, folks are using what they they have a lot of and what&#8217;s available in using corn and palm kernel oil. How likely is it that these plants turn out to be the optimal sources?</p>
<p>One way or the other, biofuels boil down to letting plants capture the sun&#8217;s energy, and then harvesting that energy to use as our fuel. Some plants are going to do this more efficiently than others, and then from there some of the processes we develop to harvest that energy are going to be more efficient than others. For things like powering cars, we do need energy-dense fuel. So if we use corn and palm kernel oil, the stuff we extract is more energy dense than if we use grass. So if we use grass, then we have to come up with more efficient concentration processes than what corn performs, or what palm tree performs.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/03/30/the-clean-energy-scam/comment-page-1/#comment-395178</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=5069#comment-395178</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think biofuels derived from any crops can be part of the solution until they develop economical systems for using switchgrass and similar crops that take very little energy input to produce. And the only real solution will be a multi-pronged approach of affordable solar power systems for individual homes, industrial level solar, wind, nuclear, clean coal (Or as clean as it can be given the mining process.), biofuels and conservation. Conservation doesn&#039;t have to mean major sacrifices either. We&#039;ve just scratched the surface on making our appliances and electronics more energy efficient and virtually no buildings have been retrofitted for greater energy efficiency. Tax credits, subsidies and publicity for the ability to do so would be a useful government program to reduce our energy usage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think biofuels derived from any crops can be part of the solution until they develop economical systems for using switchgrass and similar crops that take very little energy input to produce. And the only real solution will be a multi-pronged approach of affordable solar power systems for individual homes, industrial level solar, wind, nuclear, clean coal (Or as clean as it can be given the mining process.), biofuels and conservation. Conservation doesn&#8217;t have to mean major sacrifices either. We&#8217;ve just scratched the surface on making our appliances and electronics more energy efficient and virtually no buildings have been retrofitted for greater energy efficiency. Tax credits, subsidies and publicity for the ability to do so would be a useful government program to reduce our energy usage.</p>
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