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	<title>Comments on: McCain Caught Simplifying Iraq Events</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412221</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412221</guid>
		<description>The worst problem with McCain&#039;s claims is that not only does he screw up the timeline of the surge but also does not apparently recognize all of the other factors that went into the events in Iraq. First, there was the success not of Iraqi security forces or American troops but of the Sadrists and other fanatics who succeeded in their ethnic cleansing campaigns resulting in a mass emigration of Iraqis out of their country to become refugees in any country that would take them and a very thorough segregation of the ones who couldn&#039;t get out. Think that didn&#039;t contribute to a drop in violence?

How about the problems Sadr ran into with his own people fighting each other for influence and money until he had to order a stand down if he wanted to show that he was still the one in charge? Another contributing factor completely outside any U.S. tactics or increase in troop strength.

It&#039;s just one more example of a simplistic mindset that insists on simple explanations for complex events, especially when someone wants to take credit for the one event that they say made everything just peachy keen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The worst problem with McCain&#8217;s claims is that not only does he screw up the timeline of the surge but also does not apparently recognize all of the other factors that went into the events in Iraq. First, there was the success not of Iraqi security forces or American troops but of the Sadrists and other fanatics who succeeded in their ethnic cleansing campaigns resulting in a mass emigration of Iraqis out of their country to become refugees in any country that would take them and a very thorough segregation of the ones who couldn&#8217;t get out. Think that didn&#8217;t contribute to a drop in violence?</p>
<p>How about the problems Sadr ran into with his own people fighting each other for influence and money until he had to order a stand down if he wanted to show that he was still the one in charge? Another contributing factor completely outside any U.S. tactics or increase in troop strength.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s just one more example of a simplistic mindset that insists on simple explanations for complex events, especially when someone wants to take credit for the one event that they say made everything just peachy keen.</p>
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		<title>By: kranky kritter</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412208</link>
		<dc:creator>kranky kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 18:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412208</guid>
		<description>I agree, Alan. McCain is not above ignoring inconvenient details to make a stronger argument then he really ought to....but to be fair, I don&#039;t have much trouble believing that in McCain&#039;s mind the change in tactics to employ cpunter-4GW ideas is a part of the surge. Mathematically speaking, we tend to think of the surge as simply +30k troops, but the change in tactics is a part of the story when it comes to the currently improved conditions, such as they are/ Most reasonable folks agree on the trend if not the extent, right?

Both Obama and McCain are currently showing the sorts of gaffes that come up when a candidate is playing politics so hard and for so many marbles that he or she becomes very defensive and unwilling to concede any ground or any point. The wiser approach for both McCain and for Obama would have been to graciously acknowledge the facts as they are. Obama ought to have acknowledged that America should be pleased that things in Iraq are working out better now than they were 6 months ago, while cautioning that the hardest was yet to come and that we are being pushed to the point where keeping our troops in at current levels will become untenable. And McCain would lose nothing by acknowledging that current improvements are due both to the increase in troops and the shift in tactics. He lost an opportunity to show he was well-versed in what&#039;s going on.

BTW, for folks interested in what these tactics are and how 4GW (4th generation warfare) works and how it can conceivably be countered, read &lt;i&gt;Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife.&lt;/i&gt; I have yet to finish the whole thing, but I&#039;ve already learned a lot. And FWIW, I&#039;m not a McCain supporter _OR_ an avid hawk. I&#039;m an independent who is currently leaning towards Obama. And on foreign policy,  I&#039;m more of a cautious realpolitiker reluctant to advocate foreign entanglement than I am a hawk. I&#039;m no dove. I view realpolitik as a more sophisticated way of saying that our foreign policy baseline is &quot;tit for tat.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, Alan. McCain is not above ignoring inconvenient details to make a stronger argument then he really ought to&#8230;.but to be fair, I don&#8217;t have much trouble believing that in McCain&#8217;s mind the change in tactics to employ cpunter-4GW ideas is a part of the surge. Mathematically speaking, we tend to think of the surge as simply +30k troops, but the change in tactics is a part of the story when it comes to the currently improved conditions, such as they are/ Most reasonable folks agree on the trend if not the extent, right?</p>
<p>Both Obama and McCain are currently showing the sorts of gaffes that come up when a candidate is playing politics so hard and for so many marbles that he or she becomes very defensive and unwilling to concede any ground or any point. The wiser approach for both McCain and for Obama would have been to graciously acknowledge the facts as they are. Obama ought to have acknowledged that America should be pleased that things in Iraq are working out better now than they were 6 months ago, while cautioning that the hardest was yet to come and that we are being pushed to the point where keeping our troops in at current levels will become untenable. And McCain would lose nothing by acknowledging that current improvements are due both to the increase in troops and the shift in tactics. He lost an opportunity to show he was well-versed in what&#8217;s going on.</p>
<p>BTW, for folks interested in what these tactics are and how 4GW (4th generation warfare) works and how it can conceivably be countered, read <i>Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife.</i> I have yet to finish the whole thing, but I&#8217;ve already learned a lot. And FWIW, I&#8217;m not a McCain supporter _OR_ an avid hawk. I&#8217;m an independent who is currently leaning towards Obama. And on foreign policy,  I&#8217;m more of a cautious realpolitiker reluctant to advocate foreign entanglement than I am a hawk. I&#8217;m no dove. I view realpolitik as a more sophisticated way of saying that our foreign policy baseline is &#8220;tit for tat.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mike mcEachran</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412203</link>
		<dc:creator>mike mcEachran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412203</guid>
		<description>I am an Obama supporter and want him to win, but he&#039;s made a mistake here.   Surge, per-surge, awakening, timelines, whatever...He was wrong to argue that we needed to pull out, when what we needed was to keep pushing forward to get the &quot;truck out of the ditch&quot; (to use his own metaphore), not back up and pull out precipitously.   The events on the ground are showing that the dust is finally settling, the people are sick of it, and they&#039;re &quot;standing up&quot; so we can &quot;stand down&quot;.   Luckily, McCain is an ineffective communicator, so Obama&#039;s stumble on this is unlikely to cause him to lose (let&#039;s hope).   Even though he was wrong, he&#039;s still coming out looking like the hero.  He&#039;s a great politician, we need him to lead us post Iraq, but he&#039;s also one lucky SOB.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an Obama supporter and want him to win, but he&#8217;s made a mistake here.   Surge, per-surge, awakening, timelines, whatever&#8230;He was wrong to argue that we needed to pull out, when what we needed was to keep pushing forward to get the &#8220;truck out of the ditch&#8221; (to use his own metaphore), not back up and pull out precipitously.   The events on the ground are showing that the dust is finally settling, the people are sick of it, and they&#8217;re &#8220;standing up&#8221; so we can &#8220;stand down&#8221;.   Luckily, McCain is an ineffective communicator, so Obama&#8217;s stumble on this is unlikely to cause him to lose (let&#8217;s hope).   Even though he was wrong, he&#8217;s still coming out looking like the hero.  He&#8217;s a great politician, we need him to lead us post Iraq, but he&#8217;s also one lucky SOB.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian in LA</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412202</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian in LA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 16:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412202</guid>
		<description>I love Obama. He&#039;s killing McCain right now. But his skirting the issue of the surge as progress is one issue where I feel like he&#039;s being petty for fear of losing political points, and I want him to acknowledge that it has had an impact. I think he is right in saying we don&#039;t know what would have happened without the surge, but he&#039;s gotta admit that it&#039;s had a positive impact.

What do you think about CBS&#039;s handling of the interview, by replacing the answer of his question with another less damaging answer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love Obama. He&#8217;s killing McCain right now. But his skirting the issue of the surge as progress is one issue where I feel like he&#8217;s being petty for fear of losing political points, and I want him to acknowledge that it has had an impact. I think he is right in saying we don&#8217;t know what would have happened without the surge, but he&#8217;s gotta admit that it&#8217;s had a positive impact.</p>
<p>What do you think about CBS&#8217;s handling of the interview, by replacing the answer of his question with another less damaging answer?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Stewart Carl</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412200</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Stewart Carl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412200</guid>
		<description>Ed,

So you&#039;re saying the surge didn&#039;t work but without the surge Iraq would still be an quagmire? The far increased stability of Iraq, which is helping produce political stability, is evidence of the surge&#039;s failure? I don&#039;t get it.

Not that I attribute 100% of the improvement in Iraq to the surge, I just think it&#039;s difficult to argue that it hasn&#039;t had a net positive effect.

George: No. I&#039;m saying McCain was dead wrong for making the statement. Then, as a second point, I&#039;m saying he&#039;s right that the surge has had a positive effect. I don&#039;t know why he felt he had to misstate the historical timeline -- that loses him a few points in my book. But Obama will continue to lose points too until he acknowledges the surge has had an overall positive effect -- a position &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/07/14/2008-07-14_barack_obama_purges_web_site_critique_of.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;he is slowly moving towards&lt;/a&gt; -- which I&#039;m sure will not please Ed.

Mind you, I thought the surge was a bad idea at first. So I&#039;ve hardly come to this opinion because I was just following blindly along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed,</p>
<p>So you&#8217;re saying the surge didn&#8217;t work but without the surge Iraq would still be an quagmire? The far increased stability of Iraq, which is helping produce political stability, is evidence of the surge&#8217;s failure? I don&#8217;t get it.</p>
<p>Not that I attribute 100% of the improvement in Iraq to the surge, I just think it&#8217;s difficult to argue that it hasn&#8217;t had a net positive effect.</p>
<p>George: No. I&#8217;m saying McCain was dead wrong for making the statement. Then, as a second point, I&#8217;m saying he&#8217;s right that the surge has had a positive effect. I don&#8217;t know why he felt he had to misstate the historical timeline &#8212; that loses him a few points in my book. But Obama will continue to lose points too until he acknowledges the surge has had an overall positive effect &#8212; a position <a href="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/07/14/2008-07-14_barack_obama_purges_web_site_critique_of.html" >he is slowly moving towards</a> &#8212; which I&#8217;m sure will not please Ed.</p>
<p>Mind you, I thought the surge was a bad idea at first. So I&#8217;ve hardly come to this opinion because I was just following blindly along.</p>
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		<title>By: DougL</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412199</link>
		<dc:creator>DougL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412199</guid>
		<description>&quot;Before&quot; and &quot;after&quot; are quaint concepts best left for a pre-9/11 worldview.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Before&#8221; and &#8220;after&#8221; are quaint concepts best left for a pre-9/11 worldview.</p>
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		<title>By: George Sorwell</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412198</link>
		<dc:creator>George Sorwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:46:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412198</guid>
		<description>So, you&#039;re saying that even though McCain is wrong, he&#039;s still right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you&#8217;re saying that even though McCain is wrong, he&#8217;s still right?</p>
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		<title>By: Ed in NJ</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/07/24/mccain-caught-simplifying-iraq-events/comment-page-1/#comment-412197</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed in NJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 14:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=6399#comment-412197</guid>
		<description>Will McCain, the media, or this blog ever admit the surge has not been a success as defined by the original purpose:  political progress enabling the withdrawal of our troops?

It&#039;s amazing how naive McCain and his followers are (and the media complicit) on this simple fact:  we cannot drop down to presurge levels without reservation, for fear that Iraq will fall back into a quagmire.  This is proof of the surge&#039;s ineffectiveness.

But don&#039;t let me get in the way of the sheeple who believe the lazy MSM and need a horserace to sell papers or keep viewers watching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will McCain, the media, or this blog ever admit the surge has not been a success as defined by the original purpose:  political progress enabling the withdrawal of our troops?</p>
<p>It&#8217;s amazing how naive McCain and his followers are (and the media complicit) on this simple fact:  we cannot drop down to presurge levels without reservation, for fear that Iraq will fall back into a quagmire.  This is proof of the surge&#8217;s ineffectiveness.</p>
<p>But don&#8217;t let me get in the way of the sheeple who believe the lazy MSM and need a horserace to sell papers or keep viewers watching.</p>
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