They must have a very low opinion of the readership, if they think that.

“Well-known AA provocation troll” is, of course, an unsubstantiated claim and has not been supported by a single alleged case. And for good reason: I do NOT make a habit of running away from challenges, quite unlke Tully, who is doing the “Vietnam war option bit”: declare victory, then withdraw with a bunch of empty bravado like Not much point in responding farther unless you just enjoy watching him invent multitudes of new hoops that he will demand others jump through. Waste of time.

Apparently, in the World According to Tully the Self-Righteous, challenging Tully to document what he says is “inventing multitudes of new hoops” for him to jump through.

As for that parting shot about googling me up: good luck on wading through thousands of posts by and in response to me! In the unlikely even that Tully would single out one thread, we would have something concrete to discuss, and I don’t think he’d dare take that risk: already on this thread he much prefers ad hominem allegations to anything resembling either a fair trial or a responsible discussion.

By the way, when I said “clear cut documentation” I excluded the posting of Federal Prisoner numbers, which were not directly verifiable, and which were superfluous once Agnostick had posted a reference which actually verified that Sullenger had been in federal prison, and which I had acknowledged before Tully posted those numbers.

“kranky kritter,” you speak only for yourself (and Tully) and are hiding behind vague generalities. I challenge you to name one fact on which I got “clobbered” by the evasive Tully, who hasn’t provided clear-cut documentation for a single thing I’ve asked or challenged him about. He was bailed out by Agnostick on one thing, on which I made the purely factual statement that Tullly hadn’t documented it. He also insinuated that I was *contesting* the claim that Sullenger was in prison.

Aren’t you tired yet of getting clobbered by fact after fact after fact after fact? It;s just way too much for you to even TRY to spin. Just let it go and go away. You’re wasting your time here. Go find some gullible weak-minded folks to work your magic on. Because here you don’t even have a handful of beans.

You doubt my word, readers? I’m giving Tully the benefit of the doubt in calling him the Gullible rather than the Slanderous. Be that as it may, I fully expect him to chicken out from the following challenge.

Tully, I challenge you to document even ONE apologia by me for anti-abortion violence.

As for dishonest representations and pettifogging evasions, the same challenge holds, but I won’t press this one as long as Tully provides some documentation for the claims he makes in the rest of the screed to which I am responding, along with the documentation I was challenging him for in the post to which his latest screed is a response.

I reject with loathing Tully’s claim that I am a troll, and strongly suggest that he is the one who is trolling. I similarly reject his baseless claim that I am trying to put a happy face on the radical AA’s tacit encouragement of (and actual performance of) domestic terrorism.

The same holds for his deliberate misdirection as to WHAT I was comparing to the role of FACE in my “IMHO” comment I am prepared to search for actual statistics of anti-clinic violence before widespread peaceful blockades came into being, after FACE, and in between, if Tully has the guts to claim that the in-between stats were as high or higher than either of the flanking stats.

And one final challenge, also optional: just WHO brought suit against Terry for WHAT extracurricular activities? I didn’t want to repeat an undocumented claim that he was kicked out of OR because he was, at best, ambivalent about violent tactics, but if that claim was wrong, I’d like to hear from someone (preferably not the obviously biased Tully) about that.

Terry didn’t “quit” OR, he lost the org in lawsuits over his “extra-legal” activities. Shelley Shannon never “quit” OR, she simply escalated away from their official events. Sullenger/Newman’s press release was issued in 2003, not in 1993. After you say that she “renounced violence.” Sure didn’t sound like it there, when she and Newman were defending the assassination of an abortion doctor as justifiable homicide.

You’re busily trying to put a happy face on the radical AA’s tacit encouragement of (and actual performance of) domestic terrorism. You really shouldn’t be surprised that I’m not buying your bullshit, and that no one here is likely inclined to buy it either. Especially that bit about blaming the state of the law for the violence, rather than blaming the people who have openly encouraged violence and even actually been convicted and served time for plotting violence. Like Cheryl and Randall Sullenger. Or the people of their acquaintance who have been doing as they were encouraged, like Hill and Roeder.

But I understand how much you love them and the violence they perpetrate, so I’ll just leave off feeding the troll there.

My words that you italicized were a general question not referring to any previous claims of yours. But I can see that you do not relish seriously dealing with it, so I guess I should have said “anyone posting to this or any other forum I have seen” rather than “you”.

You did not debunk anything I said, you merely documented some of it after the fact. But apparently your unitalicized quotes from Cheryl WERE just creative paraphrasals . Care to document actual statements that they are based on?

Even your italicized quote is taken out of context. Fortunately, I *was* able to find the probable source, no thanks to you: an article in the Kansas City Star, reposted here:

Roeder’s anti-abortion activism scrutinized

Paul Hill did his deed in 1993, no? When did Sullenger and Newman put out that (reprehensible, to be sure) press release about his trial?

As for Shannon and Terry, they both quit OR long ago, apparently fed up with the lack of progress made in the fight against abortion in general and Tiller in particular. Once FACE became the law of the land, a lot of formerly peaceful folks apparently decided, “I might as well get hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.” But it seems to me like Sullenger and Newman went in the opposite direction.

So, IMHO, the abortion rights people who pushed FACE through Congress are at least as responsible for the subsequent rise in violence against clinics and abortioninsts as the people who indulge in such rhetoric as calling abortion “murder”.

OR in pretty much all its factions and incarnations has courted and recruited from the radical fringe of the Religious Right and the antigovernment movement. They only seem to condemn violence after murders when they’re the specific faction under investigation in the specific crime. Both of the organizations have ties to even more radical groups such as the Army of God and the fringer Constitution Party.

USDoJ announced their probe today.

Here’s some more info on Terry. Another link to a murderer that I don’t think was brought up earlier, James Kopp.

I believe it is illegal for gang members to associate with known gang members after prison (I could be wrong) One would think OR might be worth a similar ban for these types.

I think Tully has repeatedly pointed out that not all or even most anti abortion people are like this guy, but OR seems to have quite a track record. Is it just coincidence in your opinion?

Since I’ve made neither of those specific claims, your objections are both groundless and diversionary. I have no inclination to do any research for you–you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself, if only to look for pettifogging interpretations and/or deny it exists. You have the resources. If you are inclined to continue your years-long campaign of being an articulate apologist for radical anti-abortionists, don’t let me slow you down. We all need a good laugh now and then and we already know the hallmarks of the diversionary apologist troll.

EX: I note you have not addressed the debunking of your original counter-claims against me, namely that Cheryl Sullenger’s involvement with anti-abortion violence was undocumented (copiously shown) and that Roeder had had prior involvement with OR (he did, likewise shown). Instead, when called on it you change the subject and press on to play defense attorney for The Cause. Oh, but Sullenger has renounced violence! Heh. Once again, no sale. Her word is no good in light of her history.

One does note that Sullenger is hardly the only OR member with dirt on them. For example, Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in ‘93, was an OR member and supporter who attended 35 clinic “operations” sponsored by OR and earned about 100 days of jail time therefrom before embarking on her clinic-bombing and doctor-shooting career. The late Paul deBarrie, oft-lionized in OR’s newsletters, was a staunch “justifiable homicide” advocate with a history of arrests for stalking. Paul Jennings Hill, who shot and killed doctor John Britton and clinic escort James Barrett and wounded Barrett’s wife was a long-time OR alumni who “graduated” to the Army of God shortly before the murders. As his execution approached, peace-loving OR leaders Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger put out a press release calling Hill a rescuer of the innocent, slammed the state of Florida for disaloowing Hill a “justifiable homicide defense,” and labeled his execution “nothing less than murder of a political prisoner.”

Nope, no appearance of condoning or supporting violence and the violent there. Move along.

I’ve said repeatedly that MOST AA people are earnestly non-violent in accordance with their stated principles, and it’s true. Yet somehow the violent ones keep turning out to have connections to OR. Like Roeder does. Which merits deeper investigation. Which I am pretty sure USDoJ will provide.

By the way, do you maintain that a mere conversation creates an “association”? Would you like it if you were accused of “being associated” with each of the sundry people who have posted to this thread so far?

You say, “Yeah, who knew? Apparently, anyone who was acquainted with Roeder and was paying attention. Anyone who read the `justifiable homicide’ advocating Prayer and Action News, where Roeder several published op/eds. The militia members who were spooked by him.”

First, you make it sound like Roeder was an open book to anyone who had long conversations with him and paid attention. Then suddenly you are talking about a much smaller circle of people, who happen to read everything posted to Prayer and Action News, and the even smaller group of militia. What do you think the chances are that Sullenger fits into either category?

Finally: if Sullenger is the ONLY Operations Rescue member you’ve been able to dig up dirt on in cyberspace, where does that leave the claims that OR is a terrorist organization or even one that condones violence?

Ah, 1999! That would be the year Sullenger was served with a restraining order telling her to quit making death threats to clinic personnel and patients, no? Still no sale, oh persistent and peripetatic perpetual apologist for radical anti-abortionists.

Sullenger’s story has changed several times now. First, her name on the official OR press release claiming Roder was never in any way associated with OR. Then it was “Well, I think I’ve seen him around.” Then it was “Well, yeah, I know who he is, but I haven’t spoken with him recently.” Now it’s “Well, I talked to him every single day two months ago during the time Tiller was the most publicly findable he has been in years and I helped him keep day-to-day tabs on Tiller’s public appearances, but, you know, that’s not recently.”

And my favorite quote from her is, “Who knew? Who knew, you know what I mean?”

Yeah, who knew? Apparently, anyone who was acquainted with Roeder and was paying attention. Anyone who read the “justifiable homicide” advocating Prayer and Action News, where Roeder several published op/eds. The militia members who were spooked by him.

Whether or not Sullenger had any direct role in inciting or encouraging Roeder is up to investigators to discover. But oh my yes, our violence-renouncing clinic-bombing conspirator was indeed associated with Roeder, and Roeder was indeed associated with OR.

Look at the time frame. Bombing in 1987, repentance no later than 2002 but probably already in 1999, after having served prison time. If she had evaded the law, the statute of limitations AFAIK would have run out already. The law is more forgiving than you, by the looks of it.

No sale. I live where they operate.

So, what part of Cheryl Deann Sullenger being convicted of a terrorist clinic bombing conspiracy and spending two years in federal prison (BOP#10664-198) are you contesting? How about her husband Randall Ray Sullenger (BOP#10662-198) who served three years? Or are you saying she has never been the “Outreach Coordinator” or “Senior Policy Analyst” of OR? Because, you know, these facts are DOCUMENTED.

Oh, but she’s “renounced violence.” Uh huh. Much like dieters have “renounced” chocolate chip cookies, no doubt. Why wouldn’t I believe a convicted terrorist?

“I made no “undocumented claims” about Sullenger. She’s a convicted clinic bomber who spent two years in federal prison before becoming OR’s “Outreach Coordinator” and then “Senior Policy Analyst.””

then pnyikos states:

“About Sullenger: the OR website is up and running now, but so far I have not been able to verify your story; “

Here ya go…

“McElroy pointed out that Sullenger was convicted along with her husband in 1987 of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic. Sullenger said she has admitted her guilt and no longer condones such violent acts. She was given a reduced sentence of two-and-a-half years in prison and ended up serving two.”

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com

Rachel,
Thanks for taking words out of context. Just copy-n-paste as you deem necessary to fit your pre-conceived notions…..

In case you were not able to read the rest of my sentence (let alone the rest of the post), I went on to say that any violations of the law that he *may* have committed were a matter of the legitimate legal system, not a nutcase vigilante jackass – regardless of whether or not he got his “marching orders” from OR, his dog or any other voice he may have heard in his head.

Roeder and the rest of the anti-choice nuts harrassing Dr. Tiller were the sore losers who wouldn’t take “not guilty” for an answer. If you think you’re one of them, that’s your problem.

I did read the 2004 article and would like to know just what in it needs reconciling with the statement about peaceful, legal means. His tactics may not be very “peaceful” in your way of looking at them, but by those criteria, neither were the means of Martin Luther King.

About Sullenger: the OR website is up and running now, but so far I have not been able to verify your story; however, my search turned up a very strongly worded statement denouncing a NARAL ad that accused OR of violence:
http://www.operationrescue.org/index.php?s=Sullenger+bombing
Excerpt:
Operation Rescue has an impeccable record of peaceful pro-life activism. Since the mid-1980’s there have been well over 70,000 arrests for peaceful civil disobedience in the fine tradition of the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. There has never been a conviction of a violent act by a pro-life supporter at any Operation Rescue event in the history of the organization. [end of excerpt]

And I close with a statement by Newman from the following page:
http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/operation-rescue-statement-regarding-suspect-in-tiller-killing/

Scott Roeder has never been a member, contributor, or volunteer with Operation Rescue. Mr. Roeder may have posted to our open blog web site, as have thousands of members of the public, including those with pro-abortion views, but he is not affiliated with this organization.

We deplore the criminal actions with which Mr. Roeder is accused.
The pro-life ethic is to value all human life from the moment of conception until natural death. Operation Rescue has diligently and successfully worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see to it that abortionists around the nation are brought to justice. Without due process, there can be no justice.
In spite of these horrific events, we remain dedicated to working through all peaceful and legal means available to bring an end to the killing of innocent children through abortion.

The veracity of the rest of your post is about at the same level–the best you seem to be able to do is dredge up anti-abortion screeds and innuendos. I would urge anyone inclined to believe you to follow that link to the 2004 article and reconcile it with “peaceful” tactics. It shows a consistent pattern of stalking and harrassment.

And no, I don’t believe Troy Newman’s after-the-fact statement after having had him right up the road from me for years. He’s playing CYA. He denounces “vigilantism” after years of preaching it.

Next news flash: Roeder was twice spotted vandalizing a clinic in Kansas City over Memorial Day weekend, and again last Saturday. His description and license plate number were turned into the FBI.