Frustrated but realist side

I think you have a skewed sample audience in NY since they have a had an independent streak for some time. Going back decades.

In IL we have provided the nation with a good Republican and a good Democrat. However, we have had a sex freak and a religious freak running for Senator on the Republican Side. We had a Republican Gov who sold licenses for bribes and Rod Blagojevich on the Dem side and a Republican who ran for Gov who tried to execute three innocent men for a crime they did not commit. (And his party stood with him) so what is a voter to do here. Obama was a no brainer. for Sen and President. The most honorable Republican in some time is the former governor in Prison and I wouldn’t vote for any Republican for their moral cowardice in supporting a guy who IMO attempted to murder people for political gain. So we don’t all have the same options a New Yorker has. I’m glad for you though.

This is a very very difficult thing to change because ultimately it’s a cultural issue. How we do what we do. How we see other people. How we conduct ourselves as human beings….

It might be that we indeed can’t change that. But I think we can develop. We can get better at the things that we need to and we can create new forms of political life.

You said
We have public policy that does not reflect the wishes of the American people. That’s not democracy.

I don’t really see that changing any time soon. Unfortunately, it may be democracy.

As an activist (and personally I am a progressive — look at my blog), I have worked with Ralph Nader and I have worked with Pat Buchanan, and every political viewpoint in between. I don’t see independents as being progressive. I see the independent movement as a whole to be made up of really different people, some progressive, some conservative, some moderate.

Independents moved left in 2008 because some very serious political people had been working for 30 years to engage the grassroots and involve ordinary people in challenging the winner-take-all 2-party despotism we have experienced for quite some time. We have public policy that does not reflect the wishes of the American people. That’s not democracy.

The progressive wing of the independent movement has been tremendously successful in bringing progressives, moderates, conservatives and non-political people together on behalf of the American people.

Here in New York, where I live, we are about to elect the first independent Mayor of New York City, who is an independent himself. We built enough of a grassroots base so that the big shots have to, not only pay attention, but come to us for support. That’s big! That’s the independent movement.

I agree that special interests need to get kicked out of the process. I also would be thrilled if there was a multi-party or no-Party system where you had to run on ideas but what kind of idea rises to the top when a good portion of our population have non existant critical thinking skills.

That in essence is what I got from the above post, The parties see them as an easily confused group who can be wooed to either side. August was a good example, some Indies swung one way, some the other. I personally think anyone wooed by the Birther/Deather arguments is someone I don’t want to have any control of the future of my country. I’ll take principled over easily manipulated and I do vote Independent. Based on where we are now, hard for me to imagine ever voting Republican again. Democrats aren’t close to perfect. They are the best option currently available in most cases.

Independents helped to get us Bush. I don’t think that worked out really well.

I’m not saying there’s no difference between the 2 parties, however they’re both controlled by special interests, and the Dems, who are the liberal wing of the 2-party conglomerate, have failed to enact a progressive agenda.

I’m not saying there’s a progressive movement. Salit references an independent movement — a coming together of various forces and individuals who are creating other parties, or other affiliations that are not controlled by the Dems and Repubs.

While I will agree that they haven’t done a great job of follow through, without the Dems no one else even pays attention let alone tries to do something. What have independents done to push anything? I’ve probably voted more independent than most but the vast majority of attempts to help the little guy have never come from the GOP. There really is no progressive movement and I have yet to determine what independents really believe. Without the Democratic party no effort would be made. What do you think independents deserve credit for?

But that’s just the point of the article. These 2 very unlikely allies did come together, have been coming together around the need to go beyond the 2 parties and two-partyism.

The independent movement is made up of radicals and moderates, lefties and right-wingers and everything in between. Most independents agree that the 2 major parties are running our country into the ground out of self-preservation. They don’t care about the country, only about themselves.

Independent progressives and independent concervatives may disagree on policy, or on issues, but what makes us a movement is that we support democracy, and in a democracy, you work things out. I’m for inclusion of everybody. And I object to clubhouse politics.

“Conservatives saying silly stuff like that really helps keep independents like me in Obama’s camp. Because I can see and listen with my own ears. He’s demonstrably moderate and reasonable, and so something of a disappointment to the left. Which cheers the hell out of me.”

Well stated. Radical by association is not radical in action. This is a concept Doomed is doomed to not understand.

First of all. If your only reason for supporting Obama is because the right doesnt like him….well you need to look at your own Idealogy. Your most likely left or lean really hard left.

Secondly if you believe that the Democrats are looking out for the lower class, poor of this nation you are sadly mistaken.

For 200 years the poor have been poor and the Dems have promised if you just elect them one more term they will bring you all to the promised land.

The democrats keep giving the poor stuff and guess what the poor are still poor.

Drug of choice……..poverty.

Perhaps one day the poor will actually realize that the democrats are not their friends….they are actually their enemy. When that happens then the poor in this country might actually get some help as in being lifted out of poverty and into a life that the rest of America lives.

Moderates exist. Independents? I vote for democrats on occassion. actually about 30 percent of my votes are for democrats but Im registered Republican. I dont consider myself an independent.

The problem with the middle right now is that Barak Obama is NOT a moderate….He is a Radical.

Conservatives saying silly stuff like that really helps keep independents like me in Obama’s camp. Because I can see and listen with my own ears. He’s demonstrably moderate and reasonable, and so something of a disappointment to the left. Which cheers the hell out of me.

So whenever a conservative insists Obama’s a radical, it simply shows me how far onto the fringe that conservative is. This is usually followed up by the same conservative telling me that I am really liberal or misinformed or both. Which is about as persuasive as the first bit about Obama being radical.

And hey doomed, you’re entitled to your opinions, and to name drop radicals. But I would love to see a poll that asks independents what they think when conservatives call Obama a radical. I am pretty sure about 2/3 of them would say that it makes them think conservatives are kinda kooky these days, at least the ones making headlines.

Independents have yet to find a cohesive, middle-of-the-road philosophy of government behind which to coalesce…that’s not a workable coalition to actually achieve anything constructive.

I hear what you are saying. Ideological unity isn’t there. But many independents think that breaking the grip of 2-party hegemony and diminishing the influence of the radical fringes actually IS constructive. I understand that this is not the sense in which you probably mean “constructive,” but I for one think it’s a great start. I’d rather see open primaries and more influence for independents than to see the President and congressfolk elected based on really high turnout from either party’s true believers.

It may not be much progress, but from where I sit, it’s progress.

I also agree with you that there is at this point no reason to associate independents with progressives. What strength there is among independents lies in the fact that we can’t be relied upon to support either party on any innate ideological basis. Deliver or get bounced, that’s our slogan. Sets precisely the right tone. I am sure both parties will try to co-opt independents and convince them their party is the proper home. Most of us are inoculated from such BS from vast experience. Our power lies in our free agency.

Your may be satisfied with complaining about Barack Obama, who has a well-known history as a community organizer, as detailed in his book Dreams of My Father written and published well before the election last year.

However, poor and working people are not satisfied with this argument.

The bigger question is what do nonpartisan, independent voters think.

Independent voters — middle, left, right, wtf-ever, voted for Obama because we believe that we need new leadership not invested in partisan, special-interest politics. Independents are independent, not stupid. I suspect you are not “in the middle” but have an ideology that “leans” right. You prefer an ideological movement that excludes people you don’t like, as opposed to an independent viewpoint, which seeks to include and indeed involve everyone.

Exclusion isn’t possible in a true democracy. If you support participatory democracy, the people will decide.

I personally urge you to be more open a nonpartisan independent dialogue.

Thanks, Nancy

His speeches are laced with Alinsky and Wade Radke. He pals around with Wm.Ayers. Vann Jones moved on to the headquarters of Acorn in NY. The list goes on and on…..Hillary Clinton wrote her college poly sci thesis on Saul Alinsky.

The tactic….PRETEND your moderate…..fake them out…till your in power and then slide the knife in their backs.

Barak Obama is a Liar. He is not a moderate….Hes a far left radical.

I will make the disclaimer that its okay to be far left….but he didnt get elected on being a far left radical…He lied to convince moderates he was moderate.

Thats why you are Flummoxed…..Join the crowd. The middle is fleeing from Obama and its why the democrats are desperate to get their health care in place before the wheels come off the wagon.

That said, if the republicans make their appeal with “values” and other religious bullshit, know that I’ll be hanging with the left via my money and my spare time by knocking on doors.

Perot lost because the man’s just a bit whacky, and because self-described independents have yet to find a cohesive, middle-of-the-road philosophy of government behind which to coalesce. If one bunch hates the 2 major parties because it wants to see socialism in our time, and another bunch hates the 2 major parties because it wants to see radical libertarianism implemented next week, that’s not a workable coalition to actually achieve anything constructive.