Torture Remains The Norm At CIA’s Black Sites
By Justin Gardner | Related entries in The War On TerrorismRecently revealed CIA ghost detainee holding facilities in Eastern Europe once again raise the issue of torture without limits.
The CIA has been hiding and interrogating some of its most important al Qaeda captives at a Soviet-era compound in Eastern Europe, according to U.S. and foreign officials familiar with the arrangement.The secret facility is part of a covert prison system set up by the CIA nearly four years ago that at various times has included sites in eight countries, including Thailand, Afghanistan and several democracies in Eastern Europe, as well as a small center at the Guantanamo Bay prison in Cuba, according to current and former intelligence officials and diplomats from three continents.
The hidden global internment network is a central element in the CIA’s unconventional war on terrorism. It depends on the cooperation of foreign intelligence services, and on keeping even basic information about the system secret from the public, foreign officials and nearly all members of Congress charged with overseeing the CIA’s covert actions.
And let’s be clear, bad things happen at these facilities.
While the Defense Department has produced volumes of public reports and testimony about its detention practices and rules after the abuse scandals at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison and at Guantanamo Bay, the CIA has not even acknowledged the existence of its black sites. To do so, say officials familiar with the program, could open the U.S. government to legal challenges, particularly in foreign courts, and increase the risk of political condemnation at home and abroad.But the revelations of widespread prisoner abuse in Afghanistan and Iraq by the U.S. military — which operates under published rules and transparent oversight of Congress — have increased concern among lawmakers, foreign governments and human rights groups about the opaque CIA system. Those concerns escalated last month, when Vice President Cheney and CIA Director Porter J. Goss asked Congress to exempt CIA employees from legislation already endorsed by 90 senators that would bar cruel and degrading treatment of any prisoner in U.S. custody.
And it all comes down to the opinion of what would make us safer.
Although the CIA will not acknowledge details of its system, intelligence officials defend the agency’s approach, arguing that the successful defense of the country requires that the agency be empowered to hold and interrogate suspected terrorists for as long as necessary and without restrictions imposed by the U.S. legal system or even by the military tribunals established for prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay.
Definitely worth a read.
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November 2nd, 2005 at 11:22 am
I’m fairly certain this was classified information. I wonder if there will be an investigation into who is leaking this information and why.
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:17 pm
Of course not, this whole thing was political from the getgo….
There are leaks from everybody, all the time, and how often is there an investigation?
November 2nd, 2005 at 1:39 pm
Horrors! The CIA does nasty things! In secret, even!
I’m all for the US military coming clean about its interrogation practices, but the CIA? There’s a reason the Geneva Convention doesn’t cover spies.
November 2nd, 2005 at 2:56 pm
BoA, I think you have that backwards.
Spies are not protectd by the GC. Are you saying that a soldier captured by a non-uniformed agent of a nation should no longer have the rights accorded to them by the GC?
November 2nd, 2005 at 3:42 pm
A secret global network of prisons, supposedly beyond the reaches of the law, where widespread prisoner abuse occurs? So what? Much of this debate is already plowed ground after Amnesty International’s most recent report on Guantanamo. As far as I can tell, as long as the Soviet gulags were worse, it doesn’t matter. That report swept away the credibility of anyone who expresses concern about this type of thing.
November 2nd, 2005 at 5:28 pm
So who exactly is saying “Yes” to torture on this blog? Who in the government? Bush says he does not want it, but wants to make sure that he has the right to use it. Where is the strong conservative voice for using torture? Righties like to chime up in the hypotheticals that everything should be on the table, when actual application is at hand they either clam up or play down (Abu Ghraib). Why is it not possible for a Rightie to say anything direct in to the point other than “Cut Taxes”. Common now. Let’s hear it for good old homespun torture for our enemies… They hate Freedom, I know that upsets you.
November 3rd, 2005 at 8:52 am
john,
“Righties like to chime up in the hypotheticals that everything should be on the table, when actual application is at hand they either clam up or play down (Abu Ghraib). Why is it not possible for a Rightie to say anything direct in to the point other than “Cut Taxesâ€Â?. ”
I’m a conservative and I’ll say it… I don’t like to think about our side taking part in ‘torture’ and I guess my definition of torture is not going to be the same as yours… but I’ll also be the first to admit that I am thankful that we have people that are willing to do whatever is necessary to keep me and my children safe.
Just at there are pacifists that would never take part in a war, or handle police duties, etc., there are others that are willing to step up and handle that for them. It’s these people that enable the pacifists to continue living the life that they enjoy.
When the photos came out about Abu Ghraib and most of it was embarrassing these guys by making them walk around naked, smearing fake menstral blood, wrapping them in an Isreali flag, putting panties on their heads, etc., turning up music, leaving lights on all night….. I’m sorry that doesn’t measure up to ‘torture’ for me, show me the burn marks, ripped out finger nails, dislocated joints, lash marks, cuts, broken bones, etc… that is ‘torture’. This of course is just my own opinion, but there are lots of opinions besides just ours, and yours isn’t any better or worse than mine.
I’m glad that we have brave and fit soldiers that are willing to put themselves at risk for us, just as I’m thankful that we have police officers, firefighters, etc. I’m just as thankful that we have a CIA that works to keep us safe. Keep in mind that everytime that the CIA is curtailed by government that makes their intelligence that much harder to obtain and verify… if you want accurate intelligence you have to have a CIA that is allowed to operate in an unpleasant manner… put too many limitations on them and you get more of the same possible ‘bad’ intelligence that led to the Iraq war.
November 3rd, 2005 at 10:59 am
Deb,
Your list of things that “aren’t torture” is some pretty bad stuff, but I appreciate your candor. What about using broomsticks and chemical lights to rape detainees, using threats of death, attaching electrical nodes to their genitals, attaching them to a board and submersing them in water until they think that they will drown, and punching and kicking them?
What about death? There are 27 confirmed or suspected homocides and 141 deaths overall.
November 3rd, 2005 at 12:15 pm
Deb,
What Socks mentions are all true, and there is another factor, there is a whole stack of images and photos that the public has yet to see, and the administration and the millitary are withholding as the might be too inflammatory for public consumption. Still not torture? And I know you might say that we don’t “KNOW” what these images are, but I highly doubt they let the ones that got out to circulate and are holding the ones where they forced inmates to have tea parties. What are in these images they do not want out are much worse acts and faces of individuals that are denying that they gave the OK for these actions. What we need is one person in this administration to give a full whole hearted “Jack Nicholas- YOU WANT THE TRUTH…. YOU CAN”T HANDLE THE TRUTH!” moment, but they just don’t have the Balls to admit that they OK’d these acts. Why are they lacking the Balls? Because they know that most Americans would not want these acts to be done in their name. You appreciation of this practice aside. I think pacifists are pussies, but would I force and draft someone to fight in a war that they do not believe in? NO, because I would not want that person fighting beside me. There are plenty of non combat roles that need to be performed in the millitary.
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:04 pm
I believe that what has come to light so far is only the tip of the iceberg. Most of this stuff is under such tight secrecy that the fact that we heard about it at all indicates that there’s so much of it going on they couldn’t cover it all up.
It will be interesting to see what the investigation of the “secret prisons” turns up.
November 3rd, 2005 at 2:45 pm
“What about using broomsticks and chemical lights to rape detainees, using threats of death, attaching electrical nodes to their genitals, attaching them to a board and submersing them in water until they think that they will drown, and punching and kicking them?
What about death? There are 27 confirmed or suspected homocides and 141 deaths overall. ”
Yeah, I would say that some of these things are torture, the electrical stuff, the rape stuff would definately be torture.
The other stuff would be more of a psychological effect designed to keep the inmates back on their heels and unsure of what is going on around them… it accomplishes several things, 1) it helps in making it harder for them to focus on attacks on the personnel and escape plans, 2) they are never so sure of themselves that they can just laugh off any questioning.
I do have a problem with the 27 confirmed or suspected homocides, especially if they weren’t inmate vs. inmate but we in fact killed them. I don’t know the circumstances or the facts surrounding these instances so I can’t really comment on them.
As to the comments about this being commonplace, this incident was under investigation by the military before it was even brought to our attention by the media. So to say that this was commonplace ‘might’ be stretching it a little bit. In this war, our soldiers have gone out of their way to reduce the possibility of casualties to innocent bystanders and we have had more deaths because of this policy… to then imply that we are routinely ‘torturing’ prisoners is a little over the top.
November 3rd, 2005 at 3:03 pm
The other question would be to play devils advocate and ask your self, would you want any of this mistreatment, whether you consider torture or not, done to our soldiers by the enemy. If you say they do do these things, you are not answering the question. So, I will repeat it. Would you want your son or daughter paraded around nude, or stacked in a pile or nude people, forced to rape others, raped by any means, killed, water boarded? If you say no to this question, then you have to say that torture of a any stroke broad or narrow should not occur.
November 3rd, 2005 at 5:23 pm
BoA, I think you have that backwards.
Spies are not protectd by the GC. Are you saying that a soldier captured by a non-uniformed agent of a nation should no longer have the rights accorded to them by the GC?
Um, I think we’re in complete agreement here. The GC doesn’t cover spies, thereby making spies fair game to shoot on sight. Soldiers in uniform deserve fair treatment under the GC no matter who captures them.
My comment on the GC was simply to point out that spies have always done and been expected to do nefarious things, and therefore are not worthy of protection under international law. Espionage organizations are by definition engaged in inherently immoral conduct. They cannot function effectively otherwise.
November 4th, 2005 at 10:22 am
“So, I will repeat it. Would you want your son or daughter paraded around nude, or stacked in a pile or nude people, forced to rape others, raped by any means, killed, water boarded? If you say no to this question, then you have to say that torture of a any stroke broad or narrow should not occur. ”
I would much rather they be treated this way than to have their heads sawed off with a dull knife while they are bound and blindfolded!!!!!!!
November 13th, 2005 at 7:44 pm
[...] And yet we still have “black sites” and “ghost detainees.” What once seemed unthinkable is now becoming commonplace, as it has been revealed recently that there are more than 100 detainees that have absolutely no rights. They are our information slaves and we can do anything we want, including murder them. And let’s not kid ourselves. If one of these people die because of inuries they’ve suffered at our hands, it’s murder. [...]