Yes, Obama Is A Natural Born Citizen, Live With It
By Doug Mataconis | Related entries in BarackDave Weigel has a great article up at Slate setting forth even further debunking of the lies surrounding the contention that Barack Obama is not a “natural born citizen” of the United States and thus ineligible to serve as President of the United States:
How did the citizenship rumor get started? Ironically, it began when the Obama campaign tried to debunk some other conspiracies. After Obama locked up the nomination in early June, low-level talk radio and blog chatter peddled rumors that Obama’s real middle name was Muhammad, that his father was not really Barack Obama, and that he was not really born in Hawaii. The campaign released a facsimile of Obama’s certificate of live birth. Requested from the state in 2007, the certificate reported that Obama was, indeed, born in Honolulu at 7:24 p.m. on Aug. 4, 1961.
The certificate was a bullet that didn’t put down the horse. Why, skeptics asked, release a new form from Hawaii instead of the original paper that Obama’s parents got in 1961—the one that Obama found in a box of his dad’s knickknacks in Dreams From My Father? They quickly came up with an explanation: The certificate was forged. Anonymous digital image experts with handles like Techdude and Polarik sprung from the woodwork to prove (shades of Rathergate!) that pixels, spacing, and indentation on the form indicated that the Obama campaign had created the certificate with Adobe Photoshop. The state of Hawaii’s official statement that the certificate was legitimate didn’t make a dent—after all, who is Registrar of Vital Statistics Alvin Onaka to argue with Techdude?
This “forgery” became an article of faith in the Obama conspiracy community. When a Hillary Clinton supporter found a birth announcement for Obama from the Aug. 13, 1961, edition of the Honolulu Advertiser, the theorists were unbowed: After all, the Obama family could have phoned that in from Kenya. When Pennsylvania lawyer Philip J. Berg filed the first birth-related injunction against Obama this August, asking that Obama be ruled “ineligible to run for United States Office of the President,” he alleged that the certificate had been proved a forgery by the “extensive Forensic testing” of anonymous experts and claimed that Obama’s campaign had simply inserted his name over that of his half-sister, Maya. That would have been quite a trick, as Maya Soetoro-Ng was actually born in Indonesia.
But what, you might ask about the supposed fact that Barack Obama’s Grandmother said she witnessed his birth in Kenya ?
Well, that’s not necessarily true either:
On Oct. 16, an Anabaptist minister named Ron McRae called Sarah Hussein Obama, the president-elect’s 86-year-old paternal step-grandmother, at her home in Kenya. Two translators were on the line when McRae asked if the elder Obama was “present” when the president-elect was born. One of the translators says “yes.” McRae contacted Berg and gave him a partial transcript of the call with a signed affidavit. He opted not to include the rest of the call, in which he asks the question more directly—”Was he born in Mombassa?”—and the translators, finally understanding him, tell him repeatedly that the president-elect was born in Hawaii.
And, as Weigel notes, this isn’t going to stop with one, or more, Supreme Court dismissals:
If Obama doesn’t submit to the investigation—and so far, Obama and Democratic National Committee lawyers have ignored or waited for dismissal of the lawsuits and complaints—Schultz will go ahead and send packages of the key anti-Obama complaints to every Electoral College voter. “They’re going to be warned that if they go ahead and cast their votes for Mr. Obama, then they’ve committed treason to the Constitution,” Schultz told me on Wednesday.
(…)
It won’t stop if the Electoral College votes for Obama, as the skeptics will try to get a congressman or senator to officially challenge the result. Rep. Chris Cannon of Utah was willing to believe that Bill Ayers wrote Dreams From My Father, so the skeptics might have a chance.
And if every vote certification goes off without a hitch and Obama is inaugurated on Jan. 20? Gary Kreep is ready for that.
“When Obama starts signing executive orders and legislation,” Kreep says, “I’ll be filing lawsuits unless and until he proves he’s an American citizen. Some judge, someday, is going to want this proved on the merits. You can run, but you can’t hide.”
And thus we witness the birth of the Obama Era version of the wacko fringe.
Cross-posted at Below The Beltway
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December 5th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Obama has NOT released an unaltered copy of his birth certificate. He has NOT released any hospital or doctor records that show where he was born and who the doctor was. (He has also NOT released other significant documents, like his college records or his thesis.) He has NOT released the records of his adoption or his Indonesian passport. He has NOT released even an altered copy of the long form of his birth certificate that would give the kind of information that would completely satisfy and silence the “birthers” (at least most of them). His pattern of hiding and obscuring and even lying about his past (like stating in writing in a formal document that he never went by or used a different name) is over the top and is one of the reasons why I do not trust anything he says and would put nothing past him.
For myself and many like me, until he answers these questions (which he could easily do if he just released the documents), we will not recognize him as the president, we will not recognize any legislation he signs as law, we will not view any orders he gives the military as binding, we will not view any judges he appoints or the decisions they make as anything other than bogus.
Obama is forcing the Country into a state of anarchy by his insistance on hiding key, essential documents. For this reason, he is the greatest threat to the state of the nation to ever hit the USA–worse than 911 and even than Pearl Harbor. He and he alone bears the guilt for this disaster. And NO, we will not “live with it”; this issue will NEVER die.
December 5th, 2008 at 10:31 am
This is another example of the misrepresentations that are being published on this issue. The truth is this issue started with McCain. As far back as last February you can find an article in the New York Times accusing McCain of not being a “natural born citizen”. McCain then produced all of his birth records for review by the Senate and after review they declared that under the law McCain was a “natural born citizen”. http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-sr511/text
At the same time questions were being asked of Obama. The press then like now have a blackout on any topic that may be negative towards him. If you look at the link you will see Obama was present for the vote on McCain. Did Obama take the time to stand up and say,”Ladies and Gentlemen, I have been asked this same question and would like you to review all of my records so that this question can be answered before the election. As a Constitutional attorney I understand the crisis that would result from an ineligible candidate being elected.”
Instead Obama produced a worthless piece of paper to websites like factcheck, fighthesmears, and others. The problem is that even if the CERTIFICATION of Live Birth is authentic, it is not evidence in Hawaii of where a child was born. A person cannot get a drivers license of a passport with what Obama produced. Here is what the State of Hawaii says about the difference between a “CERTIFICATION” versus a “CERTIFICATE OF LIVE BIRTH”. The Certification is not good to prove where you are born and requires a person to sign a release and have the State produce a Certificate of Live Birth.
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl
“In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.”
So at this point in time no one except for Obama and some of his family really know where he was born. His stubborn refusal to sign a release and pay $12.00 has created a national crisis. And please do not keep saying the State of Hawaii has confirmed he was born in Hawaii. They have not. In a carefully worded release all they have said is that they are holding his original birth certificate, which the State can only release if Obama signs a release and pays the $12.00.
For example, Obama’s mother was born in Indonesia. The laws in Hawaii at the time allowed a Hawaiian citizen to register that birth in Hawaii within one year of the birth. So Obama’s parents registered his sisters birth in Hawaii, just like Obama. His sister can produce a Certification of Live Birth that would look almost identical to Obama’s. Does that prove she was born in Hawaii? No.
All of the hospitals at the time would send a list of all birth registrations to the local papers to be issued in the local paper.
So why is it important to know where Obama was born? The laws at the time, and that would still apply to Obama, are such that if he was born in a foreign country he would not be a “natural born citizen”. That would be due to the fact that his mother was a US citizen, his father a foreign national. Obama’s mother would have had to live in the US for five years after the age of 14. She was several months short of that when Obama was born. So until Obama signs a release and pays the $12.00 there is only speculation because the Certification of Live Birth produced by Obama does not prove that he was born in Hawaii.
There are also the questions of whether Obama gave his US citizenship up in Indonesia, how he came to travel to Pakistan in 1981 when it was a no fly zone for US citizens. There is also the question whether Obama registered at colleges as an Indonesian citizen.
So Obama and the DNC have brought this on themselves. This has been an issue since at least last February. Obama and his legal team have sealed all of his records. Three law firms showed up for Obama and the DNC in the Berg case to fight the case on the technical ground that a citizen cannot ask a candidate this question. To date Obama has spent over $800.000.00 to protect his past and the production of a $12.00 birth certificate.
There are now upwards of 30 law suits filed around the country, five to the Supreme Court. One filed in California Sacramento Superior Court Case 80000096 by Alan Keyes the Independent Party candidate that was on the ballot. As he was on the ballot he will not suffer the technical challenge of lack of standing.
December 5th, 2008 at 11:00 am
Tired of people who cannot read. Tired of people who misinterpret what they read. Tired of people who do not do their homework BEFORE they write an article. Tired of bad journalism. Tired of people who are dumber than toast (this is what American education has generated in the last 30 years). Tired of those who do not know their American history. Tired of the sheep who voted for “change†without having the slightest idea what that “change†was going to be. Tired of idiots who swoon at Obama’s empty, blathering speeches. Tired of those in the news who then go on to interpret the nothingness in these empty speeches (â€What he was really saying…†or “What he meant to say…†or “What he seemed to say…â€).
If Obama has nothing to hide, he should produce his birth certificate and college records. There is an old saying that aptly applies to this: Where there is smoke, there is fire!
Obama, your pants appear to be on fire!
December 5th, 2008 at 11:08 am
Wasn’t it Jesus who said “The wackos will always be with us.”
But then, what would we do for entertainment without then?
On the topic of otherwise sane people infected by fringe political paranoid psychosis, I note that Sully’s sad case of SPDS continues to metastasize. He is now a full fledged member of the “Trig Truthers” and as near as I can tell, his blog is now all Palin all the time.
December 5th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Yea Sully’s gotten pretty pathetic of late.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Well, Obama can make this go away.
He need simply produce a copy of his complete and full Birth Certificate for review.
It costs $12 to get a copy from the state of Hawaii.
Instead, Obama is spending millions to keep the Birth Certificate sealed.
Is it “crazy” to ask what’s behind the secrecy?
I think it’s a legitimate question.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Doug Mataconis:
The sad reality is that you going to have people believe this crap about where Obama was born even if the Secretary of State in Hawaii comfirmed it and I guess the Supreme Court according to right wing nut think that the Dred Scott case was the right decision too.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Jim Kramer:
He are ready did produce it but of course if it was a Republican this wouldn’t have been an issue.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:57 pm
I have a simple question:
IS IT “SILLY” TO FALLOW THE CONSTITUTION AND THE ADVICE OF OUR FOUNDING FATHERS?
Do some research don’t rely on misinformation.
December 5th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Is it silly to fallow the constitution and the advice of our founding fathers?
—Research for yourself don’t fallow misinformation—
December 5th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
I hope this keeps the whacko crowd busy for the next 8 years. Then, we can un-do the damage of the last 8 years. Pony up folks. Keep giving the tax protestors your money. Keep giving the loons your dough. At least the lawyers will make some cash.
BTW, your donation to the “We The People Foundation” is NOT fully deductible. And, who knows, maybe won’t be at all by the time this is over.
Meanwhile, busy yourselves with nonsense and let the real work get done.
December 5th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
“Well, Obama can make this go away.
He need simply produce a copy of his complete and full Birth Certificate for review.
It costs $12 to get a copy from the state of Hawaii.
Instead, Obama is spending millions to keep the Birth Certificate sealed.
Is it “crazy†to ask what’s behind the secrecy?
I think it’s a legitimate question.”
Well then, the people who say Hawaii was lying will say that they gave him a fake copy of his full birth certificate
December 5th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Doug,
I appreciate your quixotic quest to convince the conspiracy nuts of the truth behind this story. Too bad most of these people are committed to believing every lie generated and creating even more lies to cover their older lies. I remember trying to fight the “Bush stole Ohio” conspiracy nuttery after 2004. It was like trying to convince my 4 year-old that the theory of gravity applies equally to him. Some people are happier in their fantasies. It makes them feel special.
December 5th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Oh, I have no illusions that I’ll convince them of anything anymore than I had an illusions a year ago that I’d convince Ron Paul’s supporters that he had no chance of winning the Republican nomination in 2008.
Sometimes, though, I get a pleasure in pointing out idiocy.
December 5th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
Curious to hear people like Matt (presumably a Bush supporter) sticking up for the Constitution.
December 5th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Here is a decent place to go that has the worthless document produced by Obama called a “CERTIFICATION of Live Birth” versus what a “CERTIFICATE of Live Birth” or “Birth CERTIFICATE” looks like. Note the difference between the term “Certificate” and “Certification”, one is proof of whether you were born in Hawaii, the other cannot be used to get a drivers license or passport. Obama could produce the “CERTIFICATE of Live Birth” by signing a release and paying $12.00. To date he has refused to do so. The State of Hawaii has announced that it has the original and that a certified copy of it can be produced if Obama signs a release and sends the $12.00. So why hasn’t Obama signed the release and paid the $12.00?
http://www.peoplespassions.org/peoplesvoice/Birth_Certificate.htm
So Mr. Mataconis, where were you and the fringe crowd when McCain was being blasted with this in every major paper in the country.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/28/us/politics/28mccain.html
Obama and the DNC have created a constitutional and national crisis with this bs. Obama should have had the ethics and integrity to answer this question fully and openly before the election. But that may have impacted his ability to slither into the office. If it is determined that Obama has been hiding information that he knew rendered him ineligible he is in for some hard time. Placing his name on any State ballot is a crime, it is a Federal offense, he could lose his license to practice law, and I do not know how many license plates he will have to make to repay the $750,000,000.00 he has collected under false pretenses. So keep trying to set up smoke screens. Now that this is hitting the main stream media it is being covered and there will be an answer to this question before Obama is sworn in. Personally I hope Obama has not been involved in trying to cover up his ineligibility. The impact that will have on a country already staggering under other major issues will not be insignificant.
December 5th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Mr. Adams,
A certificate of live birth is sufficient evidence to acquire a US passport. Please see the information at the State Departement’s website at http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html for more information. The Hawaiian site to which you linked refers to validating Hawaiian ancestry, and is therefore not only misleading, but is irrelevant to the question of Obama’s birth.
Your claim that Senator McCain provided his original birth documents to Congress so that they could verify him as a “natural born Citizen” is also false. SR511 (co-sponsored, coincidentally by Obama and Clinton) is a non-binding resolution that declares McCain eligble for the Presidency. It is non-binding, and did not require Senator McCain to submit any official documents. If you have evidence that Senator McCain actually submitted his original birth certificate I would like to see a link to that information.
Obama’s mother was not born in Indonesia. She was, in fact, born in Kansas. Obama’s sister can NOT produce a Certificate of Live Birth from Hawaii, because she was, in fact, not born in Hawaii.
Your insinuation that the Hawaii State Officials are also perpetuating fraud by carefully wording their statements is as preposterous as it is insulting.
Any discussion of Obama relinquishing his citizenship in Indonesia is equally preposterous and irrelevant to the Constitution’s requirement of being a “natural born Citizen”. In short, your arguments are showing you to have an anti-Obama agenda, rather than an interest in the evidence at hand. To claim that Obama is fomenting crisis by not paying $12 to obtain a copy of his original birth certificate is pointless in light of the fact of the evidence he has brought forth to this date.
December 5th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
See “vault birth certificate” posted by Igor http://www.igormarxo.org
December 5th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Thomas Jefferson (had better comprehension skills than you),
from the site you linked
“*A certified birth certificate has a registrar’s raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar’s office, which must be within 1 year of your birth. Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes.”
Obama produced the short version that they say is not acceptable called a CERTIFICATION of live birth. He needs to produce a CERTIFICATE of live birth. Notice the difference CERTIFICATION vs. CERTIFICATE . The short form does not list the hospital, doctor etc. etc.
here is a copy of McCain’s long form, vault, certificate of birth
http://s46.photobucket.com/albums/f111/unique_astrology/Unsorted/?action=view¤t=McCainBC.gif
there was a forensics expert who investigated the COLB, here are his findings: http://savagepolitics.com/tag/maya-soetoro
there is alos another angle here, there is a lawsuit by We The People Foundation which is not claiming he wasn’t born in Hawaii, but that Obama has himself admitted that he held dual citizenship at birth, US and British.
You can read their case against Obama here:
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/obama/
you can listen to an interview with Bob Schultz here
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-081201schultz-mp3,0,914048.mp3file
he likes Obama, but is still pursuing the lawsuit because he cares about our Constitution. I am thankful that some people still do.
December 5th, 2008 at 7:52 pm
FactCheck.org which I believe to be a reputable organization did a piece on this months ago, and apparently inspected the birth certificate. Their conclusion, Obama was born in the U.S.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html
December 5th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Factcheck is part of Annenberg
http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2008/10/obama-bill-ayers-and-factcheckorg-all-have-ties-to-annenberg-foundation/
December 5th, 2008 at 9:21 pm
can anyone tell me why Obama would seal his records? Why won’t he release his vault birth certificate? Do you seriously not find that interesting?
Original, vault copy of Certificate of Live Birth in the USA — Not Released (1 version hidden in Hawaii, Original found in Kenya)
Certificate of Live Birth — Released – Proven Counterfeit (www.ObamaFiles.com)
Obama/Dunham marriage license — Not released
Soetoro/Dunham marriage license — Not released
Soetoro adoption records — Not released
Fransiskus Assisi School School application — Released
Punahou School records — Not released
Selective Service Registration — Released – Proven Counterfeit
Occidental College records — Not released
Passport (Pakistan) — Not released
Columbia College records — Not released
Columbia thesis — Not released
Harvard College records — Not released
Harvard Law Review articles — None (maybe 1, Not Signed)
Baptism certificate — None
Medical records — Not released
Illinois State Senate records — None (Locked up to prohibit public view)
Illinois State Senate schedule — Lost (All other Illinois state senators’ records are intact)
Law practice client list — Not released
University of Chicago scholarly articles — None
December 5th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Prudence Wright Cummings- Daughter of Liberty Says:
Stay away from the Kool-Aid.
December 5th, 2008 at 9:29 pm
http://www.fergusfallsjournal.com/news/2008/dec/05/we-really-dont-know-much-about-obama/
December 5th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Obama was born at the Kapi’ olani Medical Center on Oahu. The hospital is also called by locals the Queen’s Medical Center. Both of these hospitals are named for Hawaiian queens Emma and Kapi’olani. One is called Queen Women’s and the other referred to as Queen’s Medical. His parents were married and living at 6085 Kalanianaole Hwy when he was born. In 1961, Ann Dunham’s best friend Maxine Box visited the new Obama baby named Barack while Ann visited Mercer Island near Seattle. She verified earlier this year that Ann had never been to Kenya and was three months pregnant when she married Barack Sr. in February 1961. Barack Obama Sr.’s travel records indicate a student visa issued in 1959 with no return to Kenya until 1965 when his student visa required him to return to Kenya upon finishing his Master’s studies. This too was vertified by the Washington Post on March 30th of this year.
Case Close
December 5th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
Leave our President Elect alone. We finally have a well spoken, intelligent, leader of the free world to represent our country instead of the ignorant man who has put our country in financial
distress. While our current President is waiting to put everything behind him and let someone else clean up all his mistakes, bad decisions. He gets to go back to his ranch and sleep easy at night with a paycheck to boot! We should have impeached him years ago for what he has left as a legacy for your children to bear for the next several decades.How can this man sleep at night? Obama is smart, he will do what is best with his powerful cabinet. Don’t expect miracles. It has taken Bush eight years to create this recession. Don’t blame Obama if he can’t make headway in the next four. If you think the Gov of alaska is going to be the answer, think again. I know, I live in alaska, and she is no brain.
December 6th, 2008 at 1:15 am
Dear Prudence – thanks for coming out to play.
You will kindly note that Obama’s COLB satisfies all the requirements as it has the seal, signature, and registration date within one year of birth. His Certification of Live Birth is, in fact, acceptable as proof of citizenship. The “expert” who provided the information at that link in your post is using an assumed name in order to further the agenda of the Berg lawsuit. The other lawsuit regarding Obama’s dual citizenship is irrelevant to my post, and irrelevant to eligibility for the Presidency. As you noted, Factcheck is part of Annenberg, which is headed by the Republican Leonore Annenberg, who supported John McCain and who was a member of the Reagan administration. I would be keen to know why you think she has an interest in promoting Barack Obama. Additionally, I find it interesting that you are quick to point out an assumed (and mythological) bias in the Annenberg Foundation, yet you ignore the obvious bias in the sites you quoted (and you reveal your own biases when you use language like “hidden away in Hawaii”. As the Hawaii State officials themselves declared, Obama’s birth records have not been handled any differently than any other Hawaiian’s records.
I do note your attachment of McCain’s birth record – I am quite interested to know more about this file, and why you believe it to be accurate and why you believe Obama’s to be false.
I shall graciously ignore the gratuitous swipe at my comprehension skills. Let’s keep this game polite, shall we?
December 6th, 2008 at 3:37 am
The point everyone is missing is that the case before the SCOTUS right now does not deny Obama was born in Hawaii. The issue is that he was born with Dual Citizenship, since he received citizenship from his Father, a British citizen/subject. It is quite an interesting argument I must say, quite simple when looked at logically, but emotion can make things cloudy and gray real fast. Did the original founders put the “natural born” words there intending that someone with dual citizenship be allowed to be POTUS? Or does “natural born” imply exclusivity, as in ONLY a US citizen at birth? Very interesting indeed!
December 6th, 2008 at 10:09 am
John Adams said:”You will kindly note that Obama’s COLB satisfies all the requirements as it has the seal, signature, and registration date within one year of birth. His Certification of Live Birth is, in fact, acceptable as proof of citizenship. ”
no, it was the short form “certification” of live birth. You can be born outside of the U.S. and still get a certification like that under Hawaiian law.
see here:
“Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.â€
See link below for the entire law. A child could be born anywhere in the world and have the birth registered in Hawaii by the mother later upon returning to Hawaii using this law on the books in 1961.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
John Adams said:The “expert†who provided the information at that link in your post is using an assumed name in order to further the agenda of the Berg lawsuit. ”
no, the alias was due to death threats from Obama supporters. He did sign his real name on the findings he submitted for legal review.
John Adams said:”The other lawsuit regarding Obama’s dual citizenship is irrelevant to my post, and irrelevant to eligibility for the Presidency.”
try again.
John Adams said:”As you noted, Factcheck is part of Annenberg, which is headed by the Republican Leonore Annenberg, who supported John McCain and who was a member of the Reagan administration. I would be keen to know why you think she has an interest in promoting Barack Obama. ”
Obama is a friend of Bill Ayers who founded the Chicago Annenberg Challenge. Obama was board chairman of said organization.
John Adams said: “…yet you ignore the obvious bias in the sites you quoted (and you reveal your own biases when you use language like “hidden away in Hawaiiâ€. As the Hawaii State officials themselves declared, Obama’s birth records have not been handled any differently than any other Hawaiian’s records.”
Obama’s records were sealed in Kenya and Hawaii.
John Adams said:”I do note your attachment of McCain’s birth record – I am quite interested to know more about this file, and why you believe it to be accurate and why you believe Obama’s to be false.”
story about McCain COLB and citizenship
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/01/AR2008050103224.html
Obama has not released his vault birth certificate which would clear up the question about his citizenship. see above for Hawaiian Law (in case you missed it ;) ) that explains why the Certification Of Live Birth does not prove he is a natural born citizen.
Don’t thank me for playing. This is not a game. This is about the principles our country was founded and and following our Constitution.
December 6th, 2008 at 10:26 am
http://www.wethepeoplefoundation.org/obama/
December 6th, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Dear Prudence,
Firstly, you are quoting me incorrectly as John Adams, when I am, in fact, Thomas Jefferson.
Your assertions do not become any more true simply by repeating them. Your logic is amounting to a tautology, a repitition of bad faith statements you are claiming supports an argument that is either irrelevant to the questions originally discussed, or ignores the original question. Specifically:
The original poster said one cannot get a driver’s license or a passport with a Certification of Live Birth, which is factually incorrect, and I linked to the State Department’s site which clearly states the 2nd step in obtaining a passport is providing a Birth Certificate which contains raised seal, signature, and date of filing. The State of Hawaii’s Certification of Live Birth is not only a document which contains all of these elements, but it is specifically intended to serve as a birth certificate for validated details of birth for official documents.
That Hawaiian law at the time of Obama’s birth allowed Hawaiian residents to have births outside of the state of Hawaii and still obtain Hawaiian-birth status is an interesting academic argument, but it is irrelevant to the OPs statement which I have shown to be incorrect.
Your counter-argument to my statement that dual-citizenship is irrelevant to natural born citizen status seems to be “try again”. I am not sure why you think dual citizenship would preclude someone born in American from being a natural born citizen, but if you have any information on this I would be keen to see it.
Regarding the Annenberg Foundation, you are bringing out the old canard about Ayers and Obama who worked for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, and yet you ignored the obvious and very public facts of Ms. Annenberg herself being a Republican who supported John McCain. Annenberg is no more supportive of Obama than it is of John McCain, and to claim that it is in the Obama camp is to be obtuse to the facts.
Obama’s records were not sealed in Hawaii, as the Hawaii State Department of Health statement mentions here http://hawaii.gov/health/about/pr/2008/08-93.pdf. Just because you believe they were ominously sealed, does not make it so. I have no information as to Kenya’s sealing of any documents related to Obama (other than Berg’s claim that he couldn’t obtain such information, and therefore they must have been “sealed”).
Concerning Senator McCain’s Birth Certificate, I quote from the article you link; “A senior official of the McCain campaign showed a reporter a copy of the senator’s birth certificate issued by Canal Zone health authorities, recording his birth in the Coco Solo “family hospital.” Curiously enough, this is not match the birth certificate you posted the other day. Furthermore, I quote again from the article when it states, ” Curiously enough, there is no record of McCain’s birth in the Panama Canal Zone Health Department’s bound birth registers, which are publicly available at the National Archives in College Park. A search of the “Child Born Abroad” records of the U.S. consular service for August 1936 included many U.S. citizens born in the Canal Zone but did not turn up any mention of John McCain.”
Again, I respectfully ask you to provide some more information on where your alleged McCain birth certificate came from, because it seems highly suspicious that you believe Obama’s to be a forgery, and yet you accept John McCain’s birth certificate as an article of faith when there are clearly many anomolies in where it came from. In any event, it is irrelevant to the question, but I find your apparent double-standard to be curious.
Look around Prudence. Open up your eyes.
December 6th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
@Tyler – there are two cases before the supreme court: The Donofrio case (dual citizenship) and the Berg Case (Obama born in Kenya, etc…).
The dual citizenship case is interesting because it asserts that someone who had dual citizenship at birth is not a natural born citizen as meant by the framers of the Constitution. It is the mother of all longshot arguments. Since George Washington himself would not have qualified to be President under this most narrow of interpretations (the US was not formed at the time of his birth, so obviously he could not have been a natural born Citizen of the US) I believe this suit will get thrown out as frivolous. However, if it succeeds I will watch the results with much interest.
The Berg Case is similarly being appealed after being thrown out once. With virtually no credible evidence that Obama was born in Kenya or anywhere other than Hawaii, this case will also likely get dismissed as frivolous.
Let me finally say that should any credible evidence emerge that Obama was not born in Hawaii as Obama says, and as his documentation says, and as two Hawaiian newspapers reported at the time of his birth, then I will be happy to see this information brought to court and go through due process.
December 6th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Let me add further – the Donofrio case will not be put away if Obama shows his original Birth Certificate, so the argument that Obama must be hiding something since he refuses to submit his BC (which would only cost $12) and is instead spending big money on lawyers, is an argument which ignores the facts of the cases being discussed.
Both cases touch on assertions that remain even if Obama steps in the wayback machine and videotapes his own birth in Hawaii. For example, the Berg case alleges that, in addition to being born in Kenya, Obama abandoned his citizenship in Indonesia and accepted Indonesian citizenship. This data point exists independently of the birthplace, and would need to be refuted in court. And so therefore it is much easier and less time-consuming and less costly to get frivolous lawsuits dismissed than it is to debate them in the courts.
Since part of the litigants argument is that Obama’s documents are falsified, there is every logical reason to believe that any document Obama provides will be claimed by the opposition to be falsified. It does not benefit Obama to acknowledge these cases unless and until they have standing in court.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:59 am
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=79174
and regarding dual citizenship:
Article 2, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States:
“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.â€
Obama admits he was a British Citizen at birth and therefore, just like the Framers, he was not a “natural born citizen†of the United States
The Framers distinguised betweenâ€natural born Citizens†and all other “Citizensâ€. And that’s why it’s important to note the 14th Amendment only confers the title of “Citizenâ€, not “natural born Citizenâ€. The Framers were Citizens, but they weren’t natural born Citizens. They put the stigma of not being natural born Citizens on themselves by law.
The Framers were not natural born citizens because, “at birth†they were all British citizens. That’s why they included a grandfather clause in Article 2, Section 1. The Framers wanted to make themselves eligible to be President, but they didn’t want future generations to be Governed by a Commander In Chief who had split loyalty to another Country. They recognized that they were NOT “Natural Born Citizensâ€, because “at birth†they were subject to the British Crown as was Barack Obama.
The Framers were not comfortable with the possibility of future generations of Presidents being born under the jurisdiction of Foreign Powers. The Framers declared themselves not eligible to be President as “Natural Born Citizens†so they wrote the grandfather clause in for a limited exception.
Nobody alive today can claim eligibility to be President under the grandfather clause since nobody alive today was a citizen of the US at the time the Constitution was adopted.
Note, Article 2, Section 1 of our Constitution does not allow for dual citizenship, in fact, the Framers of our Constitution went out of their way to make sure that no person serving as President of these United States would have to suffer conflicting loyalties to more than one country. It has already been suggested that Barack has demonstrated divided loyalties because of his association with Raila Odinga in Kenya.
Why this is important; according to Fact Check, Obama was both a British Citizen and U.S. citizen, thereby making him ineligible to be POTUS. Quoting directly from the site:
When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.’s children:
British Nationality Act of 1948 (Part II, Section 5): Subject to the provisions of this section, a person born after the commencement of this Act shall be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent if his father is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies at the time of the birth.
In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
Here’s the bottom line, regardless what the vault copy of Obama’s birth certificate reads, when he was born he was both a British Citizen and U.S. citizen.
He does not meet the requirement of having been born a natural born citizen of this country and it was always in plain sight.
December 7th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Halfway through reading this thread I realized the deliciousness of the fact that my wife was watching Lars And The Real Girl in the background. LMMFAO
Prudence, your name is equivalent to the unwed mother of three I met who was named Chastity.
December 7th, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Dear Prudence,
While I remain convinced of your dedication to cutting-and-pasting from anti-Obama sites, I remain unconvinced that any court has determined that “natural born citizen” means what that bastion of truth, World News Daily, puports it to mean.
The consistency with which you continue to refer to WND for commentary on the Obama leads me to believe you are not interested in the facts of the discussion, and are merely interested in pushing the fringe party-line that Obama is not eligible to be President, a line that not even Obama’s fiercest political opponents (including Hillary and John McCain) saw fit to push.
I must admit thought, I am astonished and impressed at how quickly you jettisoned the “Obama was born in Kenya” argument, and about-faced into the “Obama is ineligible because he is a dual-citizen” argument. In any event, a dual citizen at birth does not lose “natural born citizen” status simply because Donofrio declares it so. It would be a sad day for our country indeed if litigants were able to define the law on behalf of the courts.
My head spins from deciding which case you support, but slowly clarity is coming to me and I am beginning to see that you merely wish Obama to be somehow invalidated, regardless of the alleged grounds. I am done with this thread by virtue of the fact that you do not wish to discuss legalities and realities, but merely wish to push your anti-Obama bias.
December 7th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Maybe some of you from the far right should listen to one of your own so you can stop this from creating a backlash of your movement.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/blog/Read.aspx?guid=0715ec19-b29a-4251-bda8-ca0530f98478
December 7th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
Sorry Tom you need to read your citations more. A short form birth certificate is not good for a passport:
http://travel.state.gov/passport/get/first/first_830.html
*A certified birth certificate has a registrar’s raised, embossed, impressed or multicolored seal, registrar’s signature, and the date the certificate was filed with the registrar’s office, which must be within 1 year of your birth. Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes.
To make this easier for Obama here is a site that shows the exact form that he needs to fill out to obtain a Certificate of Live Birth. Please read from pages to 7-11 and it will also show why the DHHL does not accept the short form Certification of Live Birth. Basically it does not prove where you were born as it excludes tidbits of verifiable information such as the name of the hospital, the names of the doctors.
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf
I did mis-type a point in my earlier post, Obama’s half-sister was born in Indonesia. Her parents registered her in Hawaii and she can produce an almost identical Certification of Live Birth. It does not prove she was born in Hawaii, nor does the short form Certification of Live Birth prove where Obama was born.
Again, the cite above clearly shows that Obama could obtain a certified copy of his Certificate of Live Birth, it shows the form, how to fill it out. All Obama has to do is fill it out, sign it and send in the $10.00 and produce a copy. This should have been done well before the election to avoid the prospect that we have before us of an potentially ineligible President elect.
In regards to your comments on the cases, yes the cases have mostly been dismissed on the legal technical ground of lack of standing. In other words, citizens do not have the right to ask candidates this question because they have not been damaged. Fortunately Alan Keyes and the Independent Party have filed suit in California Superior Court Case No. 80000096. I recommend going to the court website and reading the Writ. Mr. Keyes is represented by a very fine attorney Gary Kreep and the suit names Obama, Biden, Debra Bowen the California Secretary of State and the 55 Democratic electors. Ms. Bowen will have to provide what evidence she has that Obama meets the natural born test of the Constitution. California, like many States has election laws that make it a crime for an elector to vote for an ineligible candidate. As Mr. Keyes was on the ballot with Obama this suit cannot be dismissed on lack of standing.
There are now 30 or more law suits filed around the country, five or so have reached the SC. Several of these suits have served discovery to the State of Hawaii seeking the Holy Grail/Obama’s birth certificate. Let’s see how well the strained reasoning of the Martin court will hold up that there is insufficient public interest in Obama’s birth certificate to warrant overriding the Hawaiian citizens interest in privacy. I am certain there have been hundreds, if not thousands of requests in the past 50 years for the birth certificate of a President elect that will cause horrible damage to the privacy interests of the Hawaiian citizen. I think there is a legal term for pant load maybe you can help me out with that.
Challenges will be raised at the electoral college regarding this issue. Many States have similar laws that make it a crime to vote for an ineligible candidate. So the DNC is going to have to address this issue. A challenge can also be made by a Senator and a House Member if they sign a letter to the President of the Senate for a hearing on the qualifications before the electoral count is confirmed on Jan. 06. The date got moved by two days for some reason I have not yet figured out.
If Obama is proven to be ineligible anticipate Hillary/Biden, just like Hillary has had in mind from the start.
Tom, I will leave you with what John Adams wrote to his wife Abigail the second night he was in the White House,”, “Before I end my letter, I pray Heaven to bestow the best of Blessings on this House and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise Men ever rule under this roof.”
Until Obama shows the evidence that he meets the Constitutional standard he certainly does not meet John’s. Obama and the DNC have created this crisis by submitting inadequate evidence to prove Obama meets the “natural born” standard.
December 7th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Tom, One other point. Please post a cite to any Hawaiian State official that says Obama was born in Hawaii. The articles say the State is holding the original birth certificate sealed under Hawaii law, which Obama has refused to provide, but nothing that says,”I hereby certify that Obama was born in Hawaii.” I will await your post with anxious anticipation.
The State of Hawaii in my opinion has over stepped their bounds by making partial comments on the documents they are holding. I think Mr. Martin was correct in his argument that the State has effectively waived the privacy right by making these disclosures that have now been misstated by almost every article covering this topic.
December 8th, 2008 at 12:34 am
TJ,
didn’t you say this?:
“I am not sure why you think dual citizenship would preclude someone born in American from being a natural born citizen, but if you have any information on this I would be keen to see it.”
uh, yes you did! Hence, I answered, citing the mother of all sources; our Constitution. I don’t wish to discuss legalities? Instead of discussing legalities and arguing a point, you’ve resorted to attacking WND. That’s what happens when you have no argument. I do think you’re right about it being time for you to go.
buh bye now.
December 8th, 2008 at 1:37 am
Dear John,
I was quoted accurately and in context, and if you will kindly show me a link that says the Hawaiian COLB, despite having the signature, seal, and registration as necessitated by the State Department, is insufficient evidence to obtain a Passport and/or driver’s license, I shall be glad to accept your worldview. However, up until now you are merely repeating the same tautologies again, and repeating the information from the site that I have myself already quoted. The operative sentence that the State Department includes is “Please note, some short (abstract) versions of birth certificates may not be acceptable for passport purposes.” The abstract versions that do not carry signatures, seals, and do not show the time of registration, would be ineligible to be used for Passport purposes. However, the Hawaiian COLB contains all these elements, and is therefore sufficent for passport purposes. I will humbly retract my statement if you are able to provide me any evidence that shows otherwise.
Your other link to the DHHL site is, as I mentioned in my previous reply to you, irrelevant. As I mentioned before, which you seem to have ignored, the DHHL site is expressly for the purpose of validating Hawaiian ancestry. It is not a Government of the State of Hawaii site, rather it is a site that is interested in promoting native title issues (native meaning Hawaiian ancestry).
Regarding Obama’s sister being able to produce an almost identical COLB, I presume this is speculation on your part, and that you have not actually sighted her COLB. I would be keen to learn more about this, however. Specifically, I would be keen to know what her COLB states at the “city of birth”, “county of birth” and “island of birth” spaces. If you have any information on this (and no speculation please) I would be delighted to hear. If all you have is speculation, perhaps you should say that instead of asserting it as an actual fact.
Finally, regarding your request for me to cite any Hawaiian State official that says Obama was born in Hawaii, I can only ask you why you would ask for me to do this? You will kindly note that nowhere in any of my posts did I ever suggest that Hawaiian state officials verified where he was born. They have, in fact, verified his original birth certificate is on file, and you can read about this at this link here http://www.kitv.com/politics/17860890/detail.html?rss=hon&psp=news.
In it you will note that they say they have BHO’s original birth certificate on file. They did not state that he was born in Hawaii. If you are insinuating that they are parsing their statements and merely suggesting that they are keeping the original Kenyan birth certificate, then you are implying that Hawaiian State officials are colluding with a number of people in perpetuating fraud. I have no dog in that hunt, but I find it strange that you believe Hawaiian officials could verify the originality of a Kenyan birth certificate.
December 8th, 2008 at 1:47 am
In regards to one of your very first erroneous statements: to wit, Obama cannot obtain a driver’s license or passport with a COLB, I direct you to the State of Hawaii’s Vital Records Online Ordering site (the site through which the COLB is ordered).
https://www.ehawaii.gov/doh/vitrec/exe/vitrec.cgi/
Note the information provided by the state: “Certified copies of these records may be issued to authorized individuals and used for such diverse purposes as school entry, passports, Social Security participation, driver’s licenses, employment, sports participation, survivor’s benefits, proof of property rights, and other needs. “
December 8th, 2008 at 2:00 am
Here here to all those smacking down the nonsense on this topic. If I may just weigh in for a moment on this dual citizen issue, as a int’l lawyer i can say with some certainty that (a) no one can give up their citizenship until they are old enough (i.e. 18) thus the idea that Obama ever did when he was in Indonesia, etc., is nonsense. That is simply the law, rather expressly so. (b) There is no dispute the white woman from kansas was, uh, a US citizen, right? So then Obama was born a US Citizen. Therefore (c) a minimum the US recognized Obama as a US Citizen, even if this white woman from kansas in what, the 50’s flew to kenya to give birth (gimmie a break). If another country desires to also grant citizenship to a a US citizen at birth, whoopie…as a legal matter the US law cannot be amended or altered simply because another country has decided you also a citizen. As an andecdote – all persons with at least one GRANDPARENT that was born in Ireland is, at birth an irish citizen. I know, I was born to a woman born of two us citizens from brooklyn and a father born of two us citzens from detriot…my maternal Grandfather came to elis island at 16…i registered my birth at the Irish consulat when i was 38 years old and got an Irish passport (according to Irish law I was ALWAYS a citizen, just needed to register my birth)….so I was in fact a dual citizen for 38 years under the law of ireland and the US…The point i am making here is that the dual citizenship argument simply shows the flat out ignorance of those asserting same. On the issue of “naturally borne” it has to come down to whether Obama was born in Haiwaii or was not, period. The argument appears to be “prove to me you don’t beat your wife.” its offensive. i applaud Obama’s approach as it ha brought lots of nuts out from under their rocks. If the representations of the Secretary of State of Hawaii is not sufficient then move to another country. I trully hope this Supreme Court takes the case and smacks this down once and for all. Holding vigils? gimmie a break
December 8th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
TJ,
A question for you… If Obama has only produced a vague “certification” of live birth and Hawaiian law in 1961 stated ““Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.â€
source: http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm
and his paternal grandmother states that she was present at his birth in Kenya, then how is the Certification of Live Birth sufficient enough in proving he is a natural born citizen.
Also, why is it ok that nobody has “standing” to bring this to the attention of the courts?
It’s outrageous.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:21 am
Chad – You are a lunatic. Please seek professional help to control your rants over something that is non-existent, and quite frankly that you have no control over. Get a hobby, learn to knit or make wallets out of leather, start gardening, maybe spend the holidays working in a homeless shelter. But for gods sake stop thinking this reich wing meme has any substance at all – it’s simply crazy and denies the facts.
December 9th, 2008 at 4:23 am
Dear Prudence,
It is pointless to continue discussing this with you, because you have determined that Obama was born in Kenya, and you have determined that his COLB is either fake, or is insufficient to verify anything.
Both of your articles of faith are prohibiting you from looking at this situation with any amount of objectivity. Obama produced his COLB, which is sufficient for proving citizenship, as the State Department and the State of Hawaii state on their websites, and which you now conveniently dismiss as being vague. Therefore, to even attempt to answer your question #1 would be futile. More importantly, you have determined that the Berg recording of (apparently) Obama’s grandmother is 100% accurate and beyond reproach. Unfortunately the recording you are referring was heavily edited to remove Obama’s grandmother’s explicitly stating that BHO was born in Hawaii, and not Mombassa. http://www.slate.com/id/2206033. That you think this detail is unimportant does not surprise me. You have decided that the “Obama is Kenyan” websites are without fault, yet Obama’s own website, or websites that support Obama, are fraudulent. I have not even brought up the two birth announcements in Hawaii’s newspapers, but doing so would no doubt produce the same results from you – dismissal and denial. You are judging the situation with extreme prejudice, and I have no interest in banging my head against the wall of your faith. That you actually believe a poor and heavily pregnant 19-year old Mrs. Ann Obama would board a plane in Honolulu and go to Kenya (presumably via Honolulu, LA, New York, London, Mombassa?) to give birth to her baby in a third-world hospital in a malaria-infested country, and would then get back on board an airplane and bring her newborn immediately back (not to say anything of obtaining visas, vaccinations, or how she smuggled her newborn baby back INTO America) is patently ridiculous. To believe that she did all this, and the State of Hawaii did knowingly put false information regarding the city, county, and island of the baby’s birth on his birth documents, speaks volumes of your ability to discern truth from fiction.
Regarding your question about “standing”, I am not your online legal expert, so please ask a lawyer, or write your congressman.
Have a nice day,
December 9th, 2008 at 9:06 am
Dear Prudence,
Once again I have been quoted with complete accuracy and entirely in context. If you have any information on why a dual citizen would be precluded from being considered a natural born citizen I would be delighted to see it. You have quoted from the Constitution, but of course the section you quoted has nothing to say about dual citizens. Article 2 is, in fact, deathly silent on the issue, which is why I was surprised to see you reiterating a point which has dramatically failed to support your main argument. What you have cut and pasted are postings from Donofrio’s lawsuit, which are his imaginings and interpretations – neither of which form the basis of law, and neither of which have any validity in any court. The statement: “Note, Article 2, Section 1 of our Constitution does not allow for dual citizenship” is false unless you have information on a specific case where this statement has been subject to legal test and scrutiny. Even a non-binding senate resolution would be sufficient for me at this point. In regards to me abandoning my arguments and attacking the WND, I can assure you, Prudence, I have no intention of attacking the WND, and as for my arguments, they stand for themselves. Please review my postings on this page to get an overview of the salient points of this discussion.
December 9th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
What a day. Blagojevic arrested and Obama’s strategist Axlerod now retracting damning statements he made a month ago. :)
This expose will finally get the attention it deserved months ago.
http://therealbarackobama.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/evelyn-pringles-operation-board-games-and-curtain-time-for-obama/
btw, Evelyn Pringle is a democrat.
journalists who deserve credit for uncovering the evidence :
Chicago Sun-Times reporters: Tim Novak, Dave McKinney, Fran Spielman, Chris Fusco, Natasha Korecki, Steve Warmbir and Lynn Sweet.
Chicago Tribune reporters: Jeff Coen, Bob Secter, John Chase, Virginia Groark, Rick Pearson, David Jackson, John McCormick, Mickey Ciokajlo, Rudolph Bush and Dan Mihalopoulos.
you can e-mail Evelyn Pringle here epringle05@yahoo.com she is a columnist for Independant Media TV and an investigative journalist focused on government corruption.
December 13th, 2008 at 9:17 pm
There is a lot of confusion amongst many people about these terms. But Natural Born Citizen, Native Born Citizen, and Citizen all have different meanings. The Framers of the constitution were not idiots when they used the words Natural Born Citizen and Citizen in the same paragraph. A Natural Born Citizen is born in the country of parents who are both citizens (note not natural born citizens, simply citizens). If your parents came to America and become Citizens (through a Naturalization Process) then you would be a Natural Born Citizen and eligible to run for presidency. However if your parents remained non-citizens for whatever reason – you would not be a Natural Born Citizen but you would be a Native Born Citizen and would have all the rights of other citizens but you could not be president. Obama is a Citizen of the U.S. Obama is a Native Born Citizen (unless his BC is false) but it appears he is not a Natural Born Citizen since his Father was not a Citizen of the U.S. And perhaps his Father never intended to become a citizen. Or perhaps Obama’s Father would want his son to be of the same citizenship as himself – or who knows. You might argue he should be a Natural Born Citizen because his mother is a citizen, but that is not the case. However because of her – Obama can be a Citizen, just not a Natural Born Citizen.
I think the issue of his Birth Certificate is bogus and designed to confuse people. It is weird that Obama is refusing to make it available but if he is ever ordered to do so, I am sure he will do so. Currently he is under no legal obligation to provide any documents to anybody. His Birth in Hawaii or Kenya will not change the facts – that he is not “Natural Born”.
December 19th, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Sorry Tom, the cites you give say that certified copies of Obama’s original birth certificate are available. Please note the difference between “Certificate” and “Certification”. Obama needs to produce a certified copy of his original birth “certificate”, which the State of Hawaii has kindly let us all know is available for $10.00. The “Certification” produced by Obama is not good for a drivers license or a passport. Go back and read the material you have been citing which all discuss “Certificate” none of them say “Certification”.
Again, you can read pages 7-11 and this actually shows how to fill out the form, pay $10.00 and get a certified copy of the original birth certificate, which again the State of Hawaii has announced they are holding.
Here you go, pages 7-11:
http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/Loaa%20Ka%20Aina%20Hoopulapula.pdf
Once again, “Certificate” good as it has the name of the hospital, doctors and witnesses all facts that can be verified. “Certification” bad as it is not proof that Obama was born in Hawaii and it does not contain any verifiable facts.
December 24th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
This is not the last presidential election we will have. Think in terms of WHO COMES NEXT.When we look at the whole picture, it makes sense that the framers of the constitution would want to insert a clause to safeguard our nation from any sort of control from foreign nations.
That safeguard has been identified as the requirement of being a “natural born US Citizen†to be eligible to hold the office of the president.
The distinction being made between US Citizen and natural born US Citizen is that a natural born citizen is born of parents that are both US Citizens and the US has sole jurisdiction at birth. This requires being born on US soil. Whereas a US Citizen at birth, does not require that the both parents be US Citizens. One can be born of parents that are both citizens of another country, simply by being born in the US. And one can be born in another country to one parent that is a US Citizen. The Constitution does not require that an individual be raised in the US. The time requirement is residence of 14 years in the US prior to running for the office of the president.
The framers of our Constitution were safeguarding against any president having competing loyalties. That is not to say that Mr. Obama and Senator McCain are not 100% loyal. However, what about future candidates?
If the natural born citizen eligibility requirement is ignored and historical and/or legal precedent is set. By opening that door for Mr. Obama or Senator McCain we have no safeguard that whoever comes behind them, in the future, will not have competing loyalties to a foreign nation. The individuals, that brought the issue of the natural born US Citizen eligibility requirement, are not conspiracy theorists they are concerned Americans. What ever our political affiliation may be, as Americans we should all be very concerned about this matter.
December 28th, 2008 at 4:12 am
Congress will rubber stamp the election – because no congressperson has the nerve to say “Where is this man’s birth certificate?†or even “Who validated this man’s eligibilityâ€. The murky issues surrounding Obama’s citizenship need to be clarified. His BC vs COLB is not clear, his actual birth location is not clear (if his COLB is simply a registration of birth), his actual citizenship is not clear (if his U.S. Citizenship was given up), his legal name is not clear (if he was legally adopted or if his Mother was never really married to Obama Sr.). And the issue of the meaning of NBC is not really clear and the issue definitely applies to Obama since his father was not a Citizen. The people have a right to know. Article X of the constitution says “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.†It seems to me the authority to determine the eligibility of the presidential candidate’s has not been delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor is it prohibited by it to the states, therefore it is reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. This seems to me to be sufficient authority for people of the United States to investigate and to determine the eligibility of a candidate for the presidency.