Meet The Press For 12/28/08

By Justin Gardner | Related entries in Bush, History, Israel, Meet The Press, Video

David Alexrod talks about Obama’s economic agenda and Israel’s Tzipi Livini talks about her country’s recent operation in Gaza.

By the way, I think Israel’s move was foolish and will only divide the country further. I’m not sure why people continue to think more violence will end violence, but something is going to have to give in this fight and if Israel wants to be the beacon of Democracy, they can’t keep bombing these places to kingdom come, killling innocent people and hoping that the militants will back down.

In any event…

To the point of national security, here’s something in MTP that exchange John Cole points out between Rich Lowry and Richard Wolffe…

PRES. GEORGE W. BUSH: Here at home we prevented numerous terrorist attacks. We’ll never know how many lives have been saved. But this is for certain, since 9/11, there’s not been another terrorist attack on American soil.

(End videotape)

MR. GREGORY: Richard Wolffe, that cannot be denied.

MR. WOLFFE: Sure. But on American soil is the operative phrase here. There have been many terrorist attacks on foreign soil that are the direct outgrowth of what we’ve seen of, of American foreign policy, to be blunt. And it’s true that terrorism is what is responsible for those attacks, not American foreign policy. But that policy has exacerbated it and has taken the problem elsewhere. So al-Qaeda has, has grown into a multiheaded beast which is now extremely difficult to control. Afghanistan is actually in a weaker situation than it was after the Taliban was overthrown. So, you know, there are–he has a, he has a, a historic record in terms of his response to 9/11, no question. People were looking for leadership, and he filled that vacuum in those very, very troubled moments. But longer term, America is–has, has fundamental problems now that are really being kicked to this new administration. [...]

MR. LOWRY: I just want to go back to Richard’s point about the no attacks on U.S. soil. U.S. soil is a big caveat. I mean, that is a key thing. And in our exit interview with President Bush, you’re just struck by the extent to which he was a war president. I mean, that’s what drove him most passionately. And when you talk to him about it, you feel as though he’s just sort of been left behind by the public and by history. And I think that’s because of the very success in preventing another attack on U.S. soil…

MR. WOLFFE: But you can’t…

MR. LOWRY: …which allowed, which allowed the public to move on to, to other issues that they found more urgent.

MR. GREGORY: Mm-hmm.

MR. WOLFFE: You can’t take America’s national security across oceans to other continents and then only care about its impact on American soil. It’s grossly irresponsible.

I think what Richard Wolffe has zeroed in on is one of the biggest problems with the Bush Doctrine, and one that every revisionist hawk would rather ignore. If we take the fight over there, that’s where our security should be judged. And it has been an utter failure.

Yes, Bush deserves credit for no attacks on US soil, but from the cases we’ve seen that have been highlighted in the media, there weren’t any credible attacks planned against us in the first place. So forgive me if not too keen to give Bush any praise in that regard.


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31 Responses to “Meet The Press For 12/28/08”

  1. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    but something is going to have to give in this fight and if Israel wants to be the beckon of Democracy, they can’t keep bombing these places to kingdom come, killling innocent people and hoping that the militants will back down.

    But Hamas and other Palestinian terror organizations do not have to give in, and may continue to rain down rockets onto Israel and stockpile weapons ect…they can keep bombing and we don’t even have to report on it. Where were your blog posts about Hamas’ rocket attacks onto southern Israel over the past 2 weeks? Palesinians can kill innocent Israelis and continue hoping Israel will back down. And who cares about beaons and democracy if you they are arab muslims. (i.e. allow itself to be destroyed.)

    I suppose the reason you have a double standard and continue to completely ignore the plight of Hamas or their attacks on Israeli civilian areas is because you belong to the Ezra Klein school of thought:

    No deaths and few injuries. “Deeply disturbing.” Hamas lacks the technology to aim its rockets. They’re taking potshots. In response, the Israeli government launched air strikes that have now killed more than 280 Palestinians, injured hundreds beyond that, and further radicalized thousands in the Occupied Territories and millions in the region. The response will not come today, of course. It will come in months, or even in years, when an angry orphan detonates a belt filled with shrapnel, killing himself and 25 Israelis. At which point the Israelis will launch air strikes killing another 70 Palestinians, radicalizing thousands more, leading to more bombings, and so the cycle continues.

    They are just primative, unsuccesful “pot-shots” like a child throwing a tantrum kicking the shins of his father, It would be wrong to kick him back. No damage, just a few jews killed or injured here and there. After all, Arabs are just children anyway- we expect them to behave this way.

    McQ at QandO has a good rebuttal to this:

    Of course the fact that Hamas is committed to the destruction of Israel and certainly weren’t lobbing those missiles into Israel as an act of harassment, but as an earnest attempt to kill Israelis, isn’t factored into the condemnation. Somehow, because Hamas has lousy killing machines, Israel must be constrained in their destruction of them and their capability until, I guess, they show marked improvement in killing Israelis. Then, perhaps, Klein and other would find Israel’s reaction “proportional”.

    Indeed. Are you confident that if the Israeli government simply leaves Hamas alone, allows them to continue raining down rockets, and shuts down the southern portion of Israel indefinitely – as you seem to be advocating here – that Hamas will never come into possession of more destructive weapons?

    Hamas wanted a war. They have explicitly been saying this since they were founded. Now they are getting exactly what they deserve.

  2. J. Harden Says:

    they can’t keep bombing these places to kingdom come, killling innocent people and hoping that the militants will back down.

    Maybe you’d be a little less sympathetic to terrorists if you and your family lived in Sderot. Personally, I hope they turn Gaza into a frigg’in parking lot — let’s not forget these are the same A-holes that passed out candy and jumped up down in joy over 9/11.

    But hey, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind if quassam rockets landed in your childrens’ schoolyard. Talk about being on the wrong side of history, Justin.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIZ3gHCuFBc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsEJt9AY5Pc

  3. TerenceC Says:

    Justin

    He deserves credit for no attacks on our soil if he is willing to take responsibility for the attacks that did happen under his watch – otherwise he’s the same incompetent liar he always has been. Many bloggers here recently have mentioned that India should attack Pakistan during the brief window of transition between the Bush and Obama administrations – this won’t happen. However, it has always been my belief that Israel consistently takes advantage of the situation whenever the US is preoccupied – and this past week to 10 days is no exception.

  4. Cy Says:

    I was going to come in here and rip you for your ill-conceived notions, re: Israel, but it looks like a few folks have already taken care of that. Good work, fellas!

  5. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    However, it has always been my belief that Israel consistently takes advantage of the situation whenever the US is preoccupied – and this past week to 10 days is no exception.

    Hmmm…you may be on to something there. Now we just have to uncover the Mossad’s connection to the Hamas operatives firing rockets into Israel for the past 2 weeks. A “false flag” operation, perhaps? Which Neo-con Zionist Freemason do you think sent the shipment of Kaytusha rockets to their Hamas friends in Gaza? I question the timing.

  6. Jim S Says:

    Justin,

    To provide something to actually be discussed, what would you propose that the Israelis do about the missiles being launched at their cities from Gaza? I don’t care if they are not guided well. That could easily be a temporary problem if they can get more components from Iran. Even if they can’t, do you really think that any Israeli government that ignores constant attacks on their soil could survive?

  7. TerenceC Says:

    The rockets are always being fired…..that’s not a new development. Violence on violence never works – and Israel is no exception. They get their targeting information from US satellites and US manufactured drones – they have had the “bead” on the rocket sites in Gaza for months, they know who and where these Hamas people are, they have watched the build up of reserves of the Iranian made rockets for a long time and yet they choose now to attack. Gaza is 25 miles long and ~6 miles wide – and it’s one of the most densely polulated areas on earth. Any military action in Gaza results in hundreds of civilian deaths and casualties. You’re right, I question the timing right now and I question the lack of interdiction during the build up.

  8. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    The rockets are always being fired…..that’s not a new development

    Like mosquitos buzzing. A natural phenomenon that should best be ignored. Perhaps jews should learn a lesson and fire primitive rockets with warheads filled with ball-bearings into civilian neighborhoods in Gaza. That way, guys like Terrence won’t even notice, and perhaps Israel could even gain some sympathy in the process.

    They get their targeting information from US satellites and US manufactured drones – they have had the “bead” on the rocket sites in Gaza for months, they know who and where these Hamas people are, they have watched the build up of reserves of the Iranian made rockets for a long time and yet they choose now to attack.

    Astonishing. The sin, you see, is not that Hamas has been building up reserves of Iranian made rockets for a long time, its that Israel attacked them, with bad timing I might add.

    You’re right, I question the timing right now and I question the lack of interdiction during the build up.

    Are you saying a pre-emtive strike on Gaza would have been appropriate? Don’t bother answering. I got it.

    Maybe Israel didn’t fire because they were actually honoring the cease-fire agreement they made? Naw, Jews don’t honor agreements, everyone knows that.

  9. Justin Gardner Says:

    I think it’s pretty clear that I’m say Israel, as a Democracy, can’t wage the type of “kill em all” warfare that their extremist enemies do.

    How is this any different than what I’ve said about the US incursion into Iraq, our torture policies, etc.?

  10. TerenceC Says:

    All of the aid we give to Israel is military – the US is perceived as firing these bullets, and dropping these bombs, and helping kill Palestinians no matter what you think. Gaza is the largest prison in the world if you consider it is walled off on three sides, patrolled by the Israeli navy off it’s shores and faces overwhelming military force if it acts up. Israel could easily shutdown anything traveling into and out of Gaza – so why haven’t they? Don’t wiggle the Bush doctrine as if that was my point – it does not apply in this circumstance and you know it. However, the Israeli elections are in 2 months…..I wonder if that has anything to do with it. No, what country would engage in military activity just to help win an election……..

  11. J. Harden Says:

    I think it’s pretty clear that I’m say Israel, as a Democracy, can’t wage the type of “kill em all” warfare that their extremist enemies do.

    Good Lord…sit down man, you’re a bloody tragedy! My question is this…why stop with the moral equalivancy bile…why not go for the true rat-house shit: Hamas is an indigenous restistance movement that sprouteth from the soils of Isreali/US/UK imperialism and oppression!!!

  12. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    I think it’s pretty clear that I’m say Israel, as a Democracy, can’t wage the type of “kill em all” warfare that their extremist enemies do.

    How is this any different than what I’ve said about the US incursion into Iraq, our torture policies, etc.?

    You mean the laser-guided bombs that destroy the Hamas headquarters and weapons caches and tunnel openings – but leave everything else standing is a “kill em all” strategy? That it is morally equivalent to launching ball-bearing filled rockets into day-care centers? Are our soldiers in Iraq indiscriminate killers, just like our “extremist enemies?” Think about what you just said there.

    The UN reported that of the 360 or so people killed in the airstrikes, 60 were civilians. Israel warned the people of Gaza to evacuate those buildings, and the people of Gaza listened…otherwise a heck of a lot more civilians would have been killed. The ratio shows how precise and responsible Israel’s airstrikes were. How many of those civilians that were killed do you want to bet were the wives and family members of the terrorists, or employees of Hamas ect… who were compelled to stick around and provide service to the terrorists while they were firing rockets or storing weapons? What the hell is Hamas doing firing rockets from civilian areas? At what point will you realize that the moral responsibility for the deaths of those civilians is borne upon the terrorists who hide behind them while they shoot at Israel?

  13. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Israel could easily shutdown anything traveling into and out of Gaza – so why haven’t they?

    When Hamas was aked why they began firing rockets into Israel after the cease fire expired, they said it was because Israel refused to open the border crossings in and out of Gaza. However, it is true that some goods and services have indeed been coming crossing into Gaza. Click here to find out what.

    Gaza is the largest prison in the world if you consider it is walled off on three sides

    One of those sides is Egypt, whom for 40 years Israel has been begging to annex Gaza and police it as one of their own territories. Egyptian troops were firing at Palestinians who tried to punch through their wall during the airstrikes. Where is the outrage? Does Jimmy Carter call Egypt an apartheid state?

    In Iraq, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi arabs signed up for security services which were trained by Americans, fought in battle alongside Americans, and even took orders from Americans to hunt down and kill extremists. Now Iraq is a functional state and our occupation is going to end soon. Iraq has proven that it is possible for stuff like this to work.

    Well, Isreal seems to be the only one willing to fight the terrorists in Palestine, (probably because arabs in palestine are taught from a young age that Jews are satanic vermin – how’s that for your “root causes”) but if Fatah gets its act together and uses this opportunity to become the “anti-Hamas” and show a true commitment to peace, then the complete destruction of Hamas could be the greatest thing that ever happened to that region.

  14. TerenceC Says:

    This is the exact reason nothing has changed in 60 years. Israel has never begged Egypt to take Gaza off their hands – they were asked to return Gaza and the Golan Heights (together) – but the settlers won’t allow any discussion regarding Golan – so the land taken after the 67 war is settled and built upon as if Israel owns it. Settlers wouldn’t survive 5 seconds in Gaza so they leave it alone – that’s the only reason. Israel is an apartheid state whether you want to believe it or not is another story – but there is no other name for it and Israel (and the US by default) sanction this behavior. The longer it goes on the worse it gets – you can demagogue the issue all you want but it won’t change the facts. Both sides are wrong to engage as they do – but Israel can’t justify a 90 to 1 kill rate, and your nothing but an Israeli apologist to suggest anything else. The cynic in me says the proper thing for the US to do would be to become completely value neutral on the issue as a country. Then give the Palestinians the same amount of military aid israel gets, train their people, train their air force, and then let the two sides kill each other until the region is completely depopulated – otherwise the problem will NEVER go away if things remain as they are. Frankly I’m sick of it, I’m sick of the US constantly dragged into this BS, and I’m sick of the fact that the US has chosen sides in an issue we have no business being involved in. Do you think the Palestinians have influence over US policy the same way the Israeli’s do? What the US does is not fair and it effects perception since we can’t act with impartiality to even help with a solution, and the Bushies haven’t done crap about it in 8 years – not a GDamned thing, no discussions, no deals, nothing – it continues to worsen every year.

  15. Cy Says:

    TerenceC -

    Israel is not an apartheid state.

    All Israeli citizens can vote, regardless of race, creed, gender preference, gender, etc. ALL. (Israel has a supreme court justice who is of palestinian descent!) All citizens of Israel have equal rights under the law.

    “But what of the people living in Gaza or the West Bank! They don’t have votes!”

    Yes, that’s correct. Nor should they — they’re not Israeli citizens!

    “…shouldn’t they be citizens?”

    Well, let’s see. They don’t live in Israel. They have never lived in Israel. (If they somehow came to live in Israel, they could achieve citizenship in the usual ways.) Individuals living in Gaza should no more become Israeli citizens than Iraqis should become US citizens.

    (FWIW, we at least agree that both sides are wrong to engage the way they do. Hamas keeps poking Israel with a sharp stick, and Israel keeps taking their stick away and poking them in the eye with it.)

  16. Justin Gardner Says:

    At what point will you realize that the moral responsibility for the deaths of those civilians is borne upon the terrorists who hide behind them while they shoot at Israel?

    How you could seriously make that argument after all the history in Israel is beyond me.

    My point remains…Israel isn’t going to bomb the Palestinians into peace. I’m not condoning Hamas’ actions, but I think Israel is being foolish if they continue in this fashion. This is not the way to peace.

  17. J. Harden Says:

    I love being lectured about the political insensitivity of Chip Saltzman from someone taking their cues from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Yeah…okay — got it. Politically insensitive = “negro”. Politically Correct = “Jews targeting civilians, matzah balls made out Palastinian babies!”

    I suppose the way to peace is total capitulation, if not outright, ritualistic self-sacrifice. Maybe they can start cutting off their own heads and blowing up their own cafes.

  18. TerenceC Says:

    Nice try at obfuscation CY – if it’s your contention that apartheid doesn’t exist because the Palestinians aren’t Israelis then you don’t understand the nature of the problem. Millions of people crammed into ghettos and allowed into Israel through select check points to work every day, subject to search and seizure, and lacking any semblance of human rights. Arabs will never become Israeli citizens because they are not allowed to. There are millions more Arabs then there are Israelis – and if Arabs are allowed to vote in Israel say good bye to the religious state (although there is a small number of Israeli Arabs who stayed in 1947-48 so are grandfathered in). Half the Israeli’s (3 plus million) came in from Eastern Europe in the past 25 years, their birth rate is as low as ours, it’s only a matter of time before they are drastically outnumbered. On the otherhand, anyone can become an American citizen – but that is simply not the case in Israel so don’t use that ridiculous argument. What other country grants citizenship based upon religion, and sends out an international call to come and serve in the armed forces as a duty. The Palestinians are taught from a very early age to hate, mistrust and fear Israelis, and Israelis are taught from a very early age to hate, fear and mistrust Palestinians – there is no end game between these two groups except for the obvious.

  19. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Millions of people crammed into ghettos and allowed into Israel through select check points to work every day

    If Hamas wants Gaza to be ethnically cleansed of Jews, want to use it as a staging ground for launching rocket attacks and establishing terrorist training camps for the sole purpose of annhiliating Israel, why on God’s earth does Israel have a moral obligation to trade with them? Does it even occur to you that there are thousands of terrorists who would love to smuggle bombs into Israel to kill Jews? Is searching people at checkpoints now a “disproportional response” to the nagging inconvenience of being murdered by terrorists?

    I get the impression that you don’t believe that Israel is an actual nation, that in fact only “Palestine ” exists, and covers all territory from the river to the sea, and all 5-6million Jews are occupiers. Otherwise you would see a distinction between residents of Gaza and residents of Israel. That’s Hamas’ line. You are not being balanced, you are on their side.

    The Palestinians are taught from a very early age to hate, mistrust and fear Israelis,

    No. They are taught that Jews are decendants of Apes and Pigs, that their souls have been sold to Satan, an that is the God-given duty for all Muslims to murder them.

    Israelis are taught from a very early age to hate, fear and mistrust Palestinians

    Wrong again. Israeli Jews and Arabs go to elementary schools together and learn to tolerate and respect one another. Israelis are taught that their nation has a right to exist and they have a right to defend it.

    If Israel stops fighting, they will be utterly destroyed. If Palestinians stop fighting, there will be peace.

    I wonder if Muslims were white people and Jews were black, maybe then you would realize that.

  20. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    How you could seriously make that argument after all the history in Israel is beyond me.

    Well, explain it to me Justin because apparently I don’t get it. If a terrorist is shooting at you from a civilian neighborhood, and you fire a laser guided bomb to destroy the rocket launcher, and a civilian dies, how is that not the terrorist’s fault?

  21. Justin Gardner Says:

    J. Harden, as always, such a pleasure reading your measured and reasoned comments. They’re an oasis.

    Now then…

    Jimmy, I’m talking about the entire history of Israel here. You can’t credibly make the claim that the moral responsibility for all of this falls on the shoulders of Palestinians.

    Also, to this…

    If Israel stops fighting, they will be utterly destroyed. If Palestinians stop fighting, there will be peace.

    Really? You mean like when Palestinians stopped fighting and allowed Israel to take over more and more and more of their land? You can’t credibly make the argument that you’d sit idly by and allow another country to just keep taking your land.

    As stated before, I think Israel has a right to defend themselves, but this type of response will not solve anything.

  22. J. Harden Says:

    I guess I’m just not very nuanced.

    We’ll just call you: “The 4th Estate of the 3rd Infitada” – “4/3″ for short.

    Hey, on the topic of silly bullshit, has anyone heard from The One? During the election, regardless of where he was at, I knew when He was speaking because the hairs on my neck (like the shiver up Chris Matthews leg, or the tingly feeling in 4/3′s gut) would stand to attention in electric excitement…but he hasn’t applied any of his salve like healing eloquence or bold leadership to the current international situation. Porque?

    Maybe, his legions of GoogleBoyz will release a PodCast on the subject!!!

  23. TerenceC Says:

    You could have a point if you didn’t lump all Palestinians together as terrorists – but you don’t. You assume that every Palestinian is a terrorist, and every Israeli has altruistic reasons for doing what they do – but that isn’t the case. You assume that there are different levels of hate speech focused at the children of Palestine and Israel – but you are wrong. Young Israeli’s are also taught that the land where they live was given to them by God because they are the “chosen people” – what kind of crap is that? Don’t presume that Arabs and Palestinians are the same thing, it makes me think your mask is slipping off M. To equate Israel and Palestine to a simple race war is cheap and intellectually dishonest – even for you. I don’t sympathize with one group or another as you do – I sympathize with the 95% of the innocents who had the misfortune to be born in that part of the world and due to circumstances have no choice but to get involved in this stupid conflict. If they wanted peace they would have it – that goes for both the Israeli’s and the Plaestinians. One side is always accusing the other of causing the most recent conflict – when in fact both sides are to blame – one conflict it’s Israels fault, the next conflict it’s the Palestinians fault – back and forth. Who cares? Arm, fund, and train both sides and then at the appropriate time let them kill each other so that all the rest of us can finally have some peace. There is no black or white here only differing levels of gray.

  24. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    You are absolutely correct terrence, this is a religious war, where Palestinian Arabs are taught that the land is endowed to them by Allah, and that Jews are the “vilest of creatures” according to the Koran, and it is their solemn duty to wage war against them until the day of Ressurection. Jews are taught that they are a tribe (which they are), and Israel is their tribal homeland (which it is). Sort of like what native Americans teach their kids on the reservation. The difference is, to the Arab Muslims, there is no room for the conduits of Satan on their holy terf and Palestine must be Judenrhein, where as over 20% of Israel’s population are Arab Muslim with complete voting rights and property rights, and no discrimination against muslims to practice their religion.

    Israel has shown that they are willing to live side-by-side with a another Arab state as a neighbor, as they do with Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebenon anyway, so long as that new Palestinian nation obeys its obligation to reign in terrorists rather than support them. Hamas has shown no desire to do the same with Israel. They were founded for the sole purpose of the liquidation of Israel based on their religion. Why don’t you believe them when they say so over and over again?

    I sympathize with the 95% of the innocents who had the misfortune to be born in that part of the world and due to circumstances have no choice but to get involved in this stupid conflict.

    It seems Israel does as well, which is why they use laser-guided bombs to target terrorists specifically, and they have never stopped shipments of humanitarian aid into Palestine, and have done absolutely everthing the UN and the international Red Cross has asked them to do in that reagrd.

    You simply cannot make a moral choice, you have no sense of moral proportion, only social proportion. You are lumping all the palesinians together, and you see them as ethnically exotic poor people, where as Israelis are rich white people. For that reason you automatically give credit to Hamas, or discredit Israel – afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted. Well, there is a moral distinction between both sides, and the plight of the Israeli nation and the plight of Hamas are not morally equivalent.

  25. Cy Says:

    “young Israelis are also taught that the land where they live was given to them by God because they are the “chosen people””

    I see what you did there.

    ‘Israeli’ does not mean ‘Jew’ does not mean ‘Zionist’. ‘Arab’ does not mean ‘Muslim’ does not mean ‘terrorist’. Stop that.

    Jews are taught — as are Muslims and Christians! — that, in the time of Moses, chosen people Israel etc etc. It’s part of the history of all three People of the Book, and to draw parallels between that particular bit of shared religious tradition and ‘kill the vermin’ hate-mongering is insidious and wrong.

    Now, back to the apartheid bit: No other country in the world is held to the standard that Israel is held to. If you told damn near any other country in the world to grant citizenship to nonresidents, you’d be laughed out of the room. If you then told them that there was a abnormally high chance that these citizens-to-be wanted to horribly murder them and didn’t recognize their legitimacy, they’d probably punch you in the nose.

    If granting citizenship to palestinian non-citizens is such a big deal and moral no-brainer, why does Jordan still have millions of non-citizens who actually live inside their borders, unlike those living in the West Bank / Gaza Strip!

    I’m not saying the conditions in Gaza or the West Bank are good. Or, frankly, all that fair… they’re awful. Now, if only they could deal with the portion of their population that keeps poking Israel with a pointy stick, maybe their desire for sovereignty would fall on fewer deaf ears.

    It’s tempting and convenient to portray palestinians as freedom-fighters, or as scrappy underdogs, trying to stick it to The Man. It makes a nice story, and it makes us feel good to tell a bully to stop beating up a weakling. Sadly, that narrative is an illusion, and does no credit to any of the participants.

  26. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Justin, you need to watch this guy if you still have any question about who is morally responsible for killing civilians in Gaza.

  27. TerenceC Says:

    Politically speaking i’s not a religious war – it’s about land and always has been. And regarding “Now, if only they could deal with the portion of their population that keeps poking Israel with a pointy stick, maybe their desire for sovereignty would fall on fewer deaf ears.” Maybe they would be able to if Israel would stop their efforts to consistently divide and undermine the Palestinian leadership. Blocades, encouraging settlers throughout Palestinian areas, etc. There is a double standard in place – Palestinians are hit with sanctions for violating International demands and agreements while Israel consistently violates international law and these same demands without recourse. Israel must work towards a democratic Palestine. Permanent occupation and settlement of Palestinian lands erodes Israel’s identity and government. A stable, peaceful Palestine will achieve the security Israel requires. So they must take major steps to support the emergence of a viable, credible Palestinian state. The only possible outcome for Israel with their current behavior is the strengthening of Palestinian anti-democratic opposition and will result in a weakening of themselves in the process. Where have I seen this before, and before, and before?

  28. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Politically speaking i’s not a religious war – it’s about land and always has been.

    Land is religion. It is the concept in Islamic theology known as Waqif, which according to all 4 schools of Sharia jurisprudence, declares that terrirory under Islamic law must remain so until God’s final Judgement on the day of Ressurection. It is difficult for the typical westerner to understand this, as is the Christian tradition of “render unto caesar…” has enabled political power to be held in the hand of kings and emperors or republics that are a separate polity from the church. Not so in Islam. The Caliph in Islam is the preist king. Mohamad was the first one, the sultan and conqueror of Arabia – Mosque is state. Hamas is primarly a religious congregation. They say so themselves.

    Maybe they would be able to if Israel would stop their efforts to consistently divide and undermine the Palestinian leadership.

    Hamas is a terrorist organization. They deserve to be undermined, as Al-qaeda deserves to be undermined by America. The Nazis won a plurality in the Reichstag after a legitimate election. The means don’t justify the ends.

    Blocades, encouraging settlers throughout Palestinian areas, etc. There is a double standard in place

    Sure is. Over 20% of Israels population are Palestinian Arabs. If Isarel pulled out of the westbank and ended the occupation completely back to the 1967 borders, how many Jews would be allowed to live as citizens, or immigrants in a new Palestinian state – with equal rights to Arabs? (Hint: Zero, because they are Jews.)Also, although Israelis make a compelling and logical legal argument as to the right to build settlements, they have shown that they are willing to shelve the settlement movement for the sake of peace. To the extent that they will exile their own people at a point of a gun.

    Permanent occupation and settlement of Palestinian lands erodes Israel’s identity and government. A stable, peaceful Palestine will achieve the security Israel requires.

    You sound exactly like Benjamin Netanyahu. The ball is in the Palestinians court. There is occupation because the PA refuses to perform their solemn duty and fight the terrorists in their midst rather than support them. Once they recognize Israel and reign in anti-Israel terrorist organizations like Hamas – as Israel has reigned in organizations like Kahane Chai – then we may be getting somewhere.

    So they must take major steps to support the emergence of a viable, credible Palestinian state.

    The eradication of unrepentent, unassuageable terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah would be a start, sort of like how the eradication of Al-Qaeda in Afghanista has helped to bring along a viable, credible state in Afghanistan. Is it time for America to halt its airstrikes and assualts against Al-qaeda, Terrence?

  29. TerenceC Says:

    I realize how difficult it is for you to be so consistently wrong on an issue – but you need to open your mind and appreciate both sides – because they are both right and they are both wrong. Single mindedness and inflexibility is what keeps this ridiculous behavior going from generation to generation – until that type of thinking is replaced things will never change for either party.

  30. Jimmy the Dhimmi Says:

    Just one question and I’ll let you have the last word:

    Do you at least recognize that Hamas is a distinct organization that has an unassuageable agenda to destroy Israel ?

  31. TerenceC Says:

    Each time Israel uses the sledge hammer approach in Palestine all it does is strengthen Hamas. When no one cares to lift a finger to help the millions of Palestinians, then be assured of the fact that they will help themselves through whichever avenue offered – Hamas in this case. Hamas is an instrument of terror, and an instrument of salvation depending on which side of the border you are on. An economically strong and independent Palestine stands a very good chance of putting Hamas out of business permanently. Trying to kill Hamas hasn’t worked, in fact it’s had an adverse effect. The alternative to killing and extermination hasn’t been tried with any great effort and it’s worth a concerted focus involving painful compromises if peace is really the goal. Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the “Muslim Brotherhood” – these are not nice people, nor are they enlightened, secular, or broad in their thinking. The Brotherhood would like nothing more than to see the current Egyptian government destroyed along with those of Israel and Syria. And although the Brotherhood was founded on principles of non-violence, this hasn’t generally been the experience. Help the people build their economies, give them the opportunity to take care of their families with dignity and help provide a future for them in the process. Certainly stay focused regarding regional security and anti-terrorism, in a couple of generations we would be having a very different discussion about Peace In Levant and North Africa.

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