Tiller Murder Suspect Is Scott Roeder. Connected With Operation Rescue.

By Justin Gardner | Related entries in Breaking News, Terrorism

His name is Scott Roeder and it looks like he’s involved with Operation Rescue in some way. Obviously that doesn’t mean they’re to blame, but if you convince your followers that somebody is a mass murderer and is doing it legally…you think something bad might happen?

Here’s the comment he left at Operation Rescue’s site, via Free Republic:

Scott Roeder Says:
May 19th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp.

Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there? Doesn’t seem like it would hurt anything but bring more attention to Tiller.

Also from Free Republic, looks like he has a criminal record:

July 7, Kansas: Scott Roeder is sentenced to sixteen months in state prison for parole violations following a 1996 conviction for having bomb components in his car trunk. Roeder, a sovereign citizen and tax protester, violated his parole by not filing tax returns or providing his social security number to his employer.

This is just the type of domestic terrorism that the DHS pointed out in their recent report and that the right-wing was crying foul over, even though the Bush administration actually commissioned it.

More as it develops…


This entry was posted on Sunday, May 31st, 2009 and is filed under Breaking News, Terrorism. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.

121 Responses to “Tiller Murder Suspect Is Scott Roeder. Connected With Operation Rescue.”

  1. Conservadick Says:

    Obvious red flag when he showed knowledge of Tiller’s personal habits. Kansas has the death penalty, right? Killing somebody in church ought to qualify.

  2. John Says:

    I think home grown right wing terrorists are a far greater threat to America than the middle eastern variety.

  3. The Left Wing Scumbags Weigh In | The Rude News Says:

    [...] There are douche bags who oppose telling the truth about what an abortion is: [...]

  4. Simon Says:

    In what way, precisely, is “he[] involved with Operation Rescue”? What’s the basis for your alleging that, Justin?

  5. Right-wing terrorist assassin Scott Roeder may have left comments at Operation Rescue site « thump and whip Says:

    [...] Right-wing terrorist assassin Scott Roeder may have left comments at Operation Rescue site Thanks to Donklephant. [...]

  6. Chris Says:

    perhaps because he actively leaves comments on their site?

  7. Simon Says:

    Gee, Chris, it had better be more than that, otherwise you’d better hope he’s never left a comment on this site – by your logic, if that were so, “Tiller Murder Suspect Is Scott Roeder. Connected With Donklephant website.” Do try to think – I somehow doubt Justin would put up such an inflammatory claim on such thin reeds.

  8. the Word Says:

    When there is a group that could possibly lead to the death of US citizens there are some who say torture should be used to find out ant prevent any future threats. I’d never say that. I wonder what they say in this situation.

  9. Christina Says:

    Whether the shooter was Scott Roeder or somebody else, he needs to have his head kicked from one end of Kansas to the other. What the hell was he thinking?

    Tiller was so bad that even the vast majority of prochoicers would have been appalled had they known the truth about him. He did abortions on women who hadn’t given consent, at the behest of their parents or boyfriends. He allowed his bungling, incompetent staff to kill a mentally disabled teenager. He kept his supposedly gravely ill patients in a motel for three days with their third-trimester babies rotting inside them instead of checking them into a hospital. He left a baby blind, paralyzed, and mentally retarded by injecting formaldehyde into her brain.

    But all this will be overlooked. The shooter turned TIller from a monster to a martyr in the blink of an eye, with a single bullet.

  10. Justin Gardner Says:

    Simon, the guy is connected to Operation Rescue. Just how much of a connection we’ll find out soon enough.

    And yes, you’re right…if Tiller had left a comment on this site, he’d be connected to us. But, then again, I’m not an extremist anti-abortion group that labels abortion doctors as mass murderers perpetrating genocide. Big difference there and I trust you appreciate it.

  11. Joe Says:

    Simon is obviously a freeper.

    The content of Roeder’s post to the Operation Rescue site makes it clear that he was involved to the point of organizing members to go and disrupt the services at the very same church that he shot the doctor at just this morning.
    Simon says, duh.

    Then, in the flawed methods of dealing with issues that have never worked for conservatives and continue to fail in spectacular fashion. The only way they know is: attack the messenger, present a ridiculous argument – As if Donklephant is known for its anti abortion rhetoric, and wrap it up with a slight tssk tssk dear me feigned superiority.

    Damn all except the party line.

  12. Simon Says:

    Well, Justin, you surprise me. I had assumed you had some credible basis for making the charge; it is utterly risible to suggest he is connected to operation rescue (or this site) on no more evidence than his (or someone sharing his name) having left a comment on a post on their website.

    You goofed and overread the evidence; that happens. To persist in some kind of lame face-saving effort, rather than honorably conceding you jumped the gun, is truly lame.

  13. the Word Says:

    Simon –

    I guess the only difference is that Donklephant has never used inflammatory rhetoric to get psychos worked up to the point they wanted to kill someone. That and the fact that my guess is there is more consistency of opinion and less diversity of opinion on Operation Rescue. But you knew that. At the least it looks like his actions were spawned in the anti abortion movement. I applaud you for being the first to condemn it but the people who are doing these things come from these groups by and large. We’d all be better off if we sought less abortions not the murder of abortion doctors. Randall Terry is not helping that cause.

  14. Arnold Says:

    Tiller killed thousands of viable late term human fetuses, i.e. human babies, for a living in the most gruesome and grotesque fashion. Some here object to calling him a mass murderer for that but please tell me then what that made him. That is no justification to commit murder against him but we should not evade the truth of what the man did over many years.

  15. Simon Says:

    TheWord, as is your forte, you seem to be missing the point. The point is that it is preposterous and risible to infer from someone having commented on an organization’s blog that they are “connected” to that organization, a fortiori to support such an inflammatory charge.

    And that assumes, of course, on no basis but convenience to the thesis, that the person who left that comment was actually this Scott Roeder–neither “Scott” nor “Roeder” are uncommon names and a cursorary YellowBook.com search finds 73 people sharing that name–or even actually called Scott Roeder at all. I would think that someone who posts under a pseudonym would realize that what one calls oneself on the internet is in no way tethered to the name on one’s driver’s license.

    I do not suggest that Roeder is not connected to OR, but we have no basis for concluding that he is, least of all the trumped up nonsense that Justin has–to my genuine surprise–concede underlies this improvident post.

  16. anthesis Says:

    Abortion, like a vasectomy, is a personal decision that concerns only the person and the doctor.

    How many men would like to be told how many children they can father? Likewise, women don’t want to face a fate of living strapped to a delivery table.

  17. rachel Says:

    Funny, the only allegations that I can find about Tiller doing “abortions on women who hadn’t given consent” etc. are the ones on anti-choice blogs. I can’t seem to find any mention of Dr. Tiller having been convicted in any actual actual court cases (such as malpractice suits) on any legal or reputable news sites. How about a solid link to some real-world information? Is that too much to ask?

  18. Mark Anderson Says:

    Christina,
    Go to the Daily Kos site and check out “the George Tiller I knew” from a woman who’s mother’s life was saved by Dr. Tiller, her own medical treatment while pregnant for free, and the adoptions he made possible for her friends, perhaps you will see the truth, instead of your vile propaganda, which only makes these murders possible.

  19. Simon Says:

    Arnold, I entirely agree, but see Christina’s comment above.

    Joe, I think I’ve been to FreeRepublic twice in my entire life, including tonight to check Justin’s link. Your presumption does serve the function, I suppose, of telling us a great deal about how you deal with people who express views you don’t share – a mindset, ironically enough, that characterizes the Freepers! In any event, it’s hard to see how one can strain from Roeder’s comment (“Bleass everyone for attending and praying in May to bring justice to Tiller and the closing of his death camp. ¶ Sometime soon, would it be feasible to organize as many people as possible to attend Tillers church (inside, not just outside) to have much more of a presence and possibly ask questions of the Pastor, Deacons, Elders and members while there?”) the conclusion that Roeder “was involved to the point of organizing members to go and disrupt the services at the very same church that he shot the doctor at just this morning.” That construction isn’t only “[un]clear,” it is untenable.

  20. the Word Says:

    Do you believe there was any connection to the anti abortion movement? Justin never said he was a board member on Operation Rescue. Do you think the incendiary rhetoric of people like Terry is a positive force for change?

  21. Simon Says:

    TheWord, I have already answered that. See the last paragraph of my 9:22 pm comment.

    There is no evidence that connecting Roeder to OR; Justin concedes as much by resting his claim on the absurd guilt-by-comment-association theory. Nor is there any particular reason to assume, as you appear to, that because Roeder was anti-abortion, he must have been connected to some anti-abortion or pro-life group, leaving only the search for evidence of that connection, any more than one would automatically have concluded Harris and Klebold belonged to the NRA.

    That is not to say that Roeder will not turn out to have been involved
    But this allegation – couched as it is and on such gossamer evidence – is unfortunate. One expects to see such nonense peddled at DU or FR – but not here.

  22. Simon Says:

    Put another way, I’m saying that Donklephant has a category for this post. It should be retracted.

  23. the Word Says:

    Simon-if that is your real name :-)
    Time will tell. I encourage you to use the same criteria for all those in Gitmo, Abu Gharaib and US prisons.

    If he did make the post, do you believe it indicates any connection to the anti abortion movement?

    and Terry?

  24. Simon Says:

    If he made the post, that would not demonstrate a “connection” to OR, or to any other particular pro-life or anti-abortion group, as my reply to Joe indicated. All it would demonstrate is that the person who left the comment was either pro-life or anti-abortion, and if it’s the same guy, we know from his subsequent actions that he is the latter rather than the former.

  25. the Word Says:

    and Terry?

  26. Troll Says:

    Simon,

    How do you define “connected” ?

    The post, if authentic, indicates that a man named Scott Roeder likely attended an Operation Rescue-sponsored protest event on May 19, 2007 and posted about it hours later. That suggests a far closer connection than a casual cyberspace visitor.

    whitepages.com shows no Scott Roeder’s anywhere in Kansas, let alone Merriam. Seven Roeder’s are in nearby Overland Park and three others in Kansas City. None are named Scott. How many unlisted Scott Roeder’s can there possibly be in the Kansas City area?

    In the absence of official details from the police, people are drawing their own connections based on available information and their own gut instinct. Is that wrong? I think the journalistic bar is allowed to fluctuate quite a bit in the immediate hours after an event has occured, especially in a blog. Think about the vast spectrum of reactions after events like the Oklahoma City bombings, the Atlanta Olympics bombing or the crash of American 587 into Queens, NY on Nov 12, 2001. Speculation is par for the course at this point…

  27. B35 Says:

    So the State murdering the murderer of yet another murderer should be okay in THIS case because it ended up happening in a church because some abortionist liked to cloak himself in Christianity all the while he was killing helpless children?

    Yeah, THAT makes sense. :rolleyes:

  28. the Word Says:

    http://www.armyofgod.com/ShelleyWhois.html

    Can we at least stipulate that Shelley Shannon who shot him last time was a member of Operation Rescue? Perhaps the vitriol actually leads to violence sometimes.

  29. michael reynolds Says:

    There is no proof he was with Operation Rescue. I suspect that proof may surface, but it isn’t yet evident. “Connected” is a vague weasel word much beloved in the media. Anyone can be connected to anyone given enough effort and a sufficiently loose definition of the word.

    If he is connected in some more direct way I think we can condemn the rhetoric of OR but should set a pretty high bar for shifting the blame from the shooter to the loudmouths. Talking stupid is protected. Murder not so much.

  30. Matthew Platte Says:

    “Obviously that doesn’t mean they’re to blame…”

    There’s this thing about American justice where we’re supposed to presume that a person is innocent until proven guilty. I think that’s a good plan. Scott Roeder is innocent – for now.

    Operation Rescue doesn’t get that same presumption. Indeed, this gang that advocates violence should be presumed guilty unless proven otherwise.

  31. Daniel Says:

    I wonder what will happen the day that pro-choice people start acting the way that prolife people do. Ok there is a little proof, not substantial yet, that he was involved with a the rescue place. Either way this is not the first time a MD has been threatened, killed or his place of work vandalized by “pro-lifers”. I wonder what would happen if us pro-choice people did the same? What if the one looney out of the bunch started vandalizing anti-abortion buildings or hurting their members? I know exactly what Tiller did, my sister told me, and he warned everyone that came in that door, and yes and earlier post was correct he sent them to a hotel for 3 days, big deal. You know what, he also provided them with guards because of the crazy pro-life people. I am not going to promote violence, but I wonder sometimes if life would be better if the playing field became leveled really quickly….maybe people would start to keep their bullets and opinions to themselves.

  32. Justin Gardner Says:

    Michael, I appreciate your opinion, but I don’t agree. The guy left a comment on their site that talked about him attending a rally and trying to organize another one INSIDE Tiller’s church. He’s connected, and in a non-trivial way.

    Simon, my point stands. Think what you want about my intentions. The post will not be modified.

  33. michael reynolds Says:

    Justin:

    As I said, I suspect you’ll be proven right. If I were betting I’d put money on it. I don’t think the case is made yet.

  34. johnnieringo Says:

    This is blowback. You liberals say that this is lawlessness, which it is, but you guys started the lawlessness through roe v. wade which is a flat out illegal misinterpretation of the constitution. roe v. wade is lawlessness, period. so what goes around comes around.

    you ask the founders if they had abortion in mind when the document was drafted. i think you know the answer. and so the feds are the proximate cause of this. why do people cry over this moron?

  35. Justin Gardner Says:

    Michael, the case is made in so much as it’s a fact that Roeder and Operation Rescue are connected. And I was disagreeing with your point that any two things can be connected because, while true, it ignores some fairly important common themes between Roeder and Operation Rescue.

    Also, it goes back to the question Simon asked about the idea of Roeder commenting here at some point. Yes, he would have been connected to this site if that were the case, but not in a way that informs why he would have taken the actions that he did.

    So now that the connection has been found, to what extent and how important is that connection is the question we need to answer. It may have just been a comment left on their site or he may have attended one rally. We simply don’t know right now. Regardless, I don’t think it’s inappropriate to state a fact.

  36. Norris Hall Says:

    All of you who claim to be pro life need a reality check.
    There is absolutely no need for you to backpeddle and appear horrified that a baby killer got what he deserved.
    If you really believe that Tiller was taking innocent lives, why claim to be outraged by the person who put the baby killer where he belongs.
    If someone were to attack my children I would make no apologies for putting the guy out of his misery and I would be insulted if you berated me for doing the right thing.
    Would you be upset if someone took it upoon himself to assassinate Osama Ben Ladin? Of course not. We’d probably give him a medal (and the 50 million dollars that our government is awarding to anyone who can bring him to justice.)

    Enough wringing hands and nashing of teeth.
    After todays killing, abortionists all over the country are probably thinking it’s time to get out.

    Mission accomplished!!

  37. Agnostick Says:

    Operation Rescue web site is now down… perhaps seized by Department of Homeland Security, as part of domestic terrorism investigation?

    Agnostick
    [email protected]

  38. michael reynolds Says:

    Justin:

    I’m probably particularly sensitive on this issue because I’m a kid book author. Some kid could go Columbine and it turns out he’s read my books and suddenly he’s “connected” to me. This kind of thing happens from time to time. See: Eminem made me kill or Judas Priest made me smoke crack.

    The careless use of “connected” borders on guilt-by-association. The crowing rooster does not make the sun rise. And creepy, objectionable rhetoric does not make people murder. Yes, Randall Terry and Operation Rescue are creeps. And yes this guy may be connected to OR. Yes, inflamatory rhetoric is at best unhelpful, but if this guy shot the doctor the crime is on him, not on OR.

    Although I’ll admit it’s a fine moral point, and my instinct is at war with my philosophy on this.

  39. Agnostick Says:

    The only problem with your sad excuse for logic, Mr. Hall… is that even if every abortion provider in the nation shut down their doors tomorrow… the abortions would still continue.

    There will always be abortions, and abortion providers… as long as there are unwanted pregnancies.

    The only way to reduce the number of abortions, is to reducer the number of unwanted pregnancies. That means promoting abstinence in and through several venues… access to birth control… and access to drugs like RU-486.

    That’s the logical approach to the problem of abortion, though… and most pro-life extremists are woefully short on logic.

    Agnostick
    [email protected]

  40. rachel Says:

    I thank God–and the US Supreme Court–that Norris Hall, Christina and the rest of these fools are not in charge of my reproductive decisions. I dearly hope they’re not in charge of anyone else’s.

  41. Erik Says:

    A terrorist is someone who targets and kills INNOCENT people.

  42. Max The Cat Says:

    Anybody got a date of birth for Scotty the prayer warrior? I want to run his criminal record with KBI for an article I’m doing, and they require DOB.

    I was thinking last night, when Scott dies and stand before God to be judged, how much do you want to bet the only thing God has to say to him is, “In My House, Scott?”

  43. Simon Says:

    michael reynolds Says:

    I’m probably particularly sensitive on this issue because I’m a kid book author. Some kid could go Columbine and it turns out he’s read my books and suddenly he’s “connected” to me. This kind of thing happens from time to time. See: Eminem made me kill or Judas Priest made me smoke crack.

    The careless use of “connected” borders on guilt-by-association. The crowing rooster does not make the sun rise. And creepy, objectionable rhetoric does not make people murder. Yes, Randall Terry and Operation Rescue are creeps. And yes this guy may be connected to OR. Yes, inflamatory rhetoric is at best unhelpful, but if this guy shot the doctor the crime is on him, not on OR.

    Exactly right.
    Justin, your claim that Roeder would be associated with Donklephant had he left one comment here is required in order to maintain your theory that he is connected to OR for having done the same with their site, but it is a foolish consistency that should make have made you rethink the original claim.

    Michael Reynolds and I do not often agree. When we do, it’s very likely that we’re talking about sun-rises-in-the-east truths, which is the case here.

  44. Chris Says:

    Agnostick,
    you can’t argue with people who think the world is 6k years old, you can only show them to be the fools that they are to everyone else.

  45. Chris Says:

    And Simon,
    I am connected to Donklephant, in that I comment on here regularly. So what’s your point? “connected to” may be wishy washy journalism wording, but it still holds true.

  46. Simon Says:

    Actually, Chris, you aren’t, but even if you were, someone who left one comment two years ago, the analog of Roeder’s supposed “involvement” with OR, certainly is not.

  47. Boston Corbett Says:

    “Connected” works just fine for me. Even after reading Simon’s protests.

    And I also believe when the evidence comes out, there will be a lot more “connections” in the way of this guy’s participation in events and meetings and ralleys. And when that happens, I presume Simon will explain “connected” means something like elected leadership. It doesn’t.

  48. Greg Says:

    Actually, the proChoice community has been engaged in “payback”. They put our addresses and phone numbers on protest signs and one came out to my house and told me what my electric meter reading was when I should up to pray on site. I was told to watch my back.
    I don’t approve of any violence, including the killing of Dr. Tiller and the killing of his innocent victims. Our society is creating these horrible killers – I wish we could care about all life.

  49. Chris Says:

    So you’re against the death penalty as well Greg? What about the military? Police? All those people are evil murderers? Ironically I am against institutionalized violence as well.

    However, even though abortion may be morally wrong, it’s ethically correct to allow people to legally get them.

  50. Teresa Roos Says:

    I am a Catholic. I believe abortion is murder. that is my personal belief. Killing -as in abortion, the death penalty, euthanasia of our elderly–I believe they are all wrong. Just as it is wrong to murder someone on the streets, in their home or in their church. If you paint antiabortionists with a broad brush, you only convince fair minded people of your lack of civility and narrowmindedness. Killing an abortion doctor only sets back peace loving people–and as one post said–he then becomes the martyr…
    May all those who have died at the hands of murderers rest in peace.

  51. R L Says:

    Simon,
    what’s risible is your unrelenting suggestions that Justin didn’t fact check well enough to suggest that Roeder was involved with Operation Rescue. Did you contact CNN and all the other national news sites which mentioned, as Justin did, that Roeder had blog’d on OP Recue’s site ? I suppose since Roeder’s conviction for possessing bomb material was eventually reversed that it is irrelevant as well ? I guess Roeder’s own words on the OP rescue blog indicating his obssesion with the man he gunned down don’t indicate his involvement either…
    Wake Up Guy !! Sometimes when it looks like a duck, it is a duck !
    Nobody in the press (or Justin) has tagged Operation Rescue’s philosophy as the driver of this sick individuals actions. But, having checked their website, it’s clear they are attractive to the radical element and skirt the line of encouraging radical action with their official slogan : “If you believe abortion is murder, act like it’s murder.”

  52. Agnostick Says:

    http://www.operationrescue.org

    and that address gives me…

    ****************************************************
    Forbidden
    You don’t have permission to access / on this server.

    Additionally, a 403 Forbidden error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
    Apache/1.3.41 Server at operationrescue.org Port 80

    ****************************************************

    Anybody else get that?

    –Ag

  53. John Says:

    I have an interesting suggestion. Perhaps pro-lifers could Lobby the government to make Birth Control Free. This seems like a radical idea, but Most health insurance doesn’t even cover Birth Control Pills for women, but ironically will cover Viagra. Let’s make access to Birth Control so easy, people will not have an excuse for unwanted pregnancy. Well… it should, at the very least reduce them. $70 a month is a lot for anyone to shell out for this. If the prolifer’s really cared about the abortions, this would be a better route than killing an innocent man. But I have a feeling that this would not be a viable solution to them either. There is no middle ground with radicals and terrorists.

  54. R L Says:

    AG,
    I can’t get back there now either … probably overload due to the sudden “publicity”.

    Here is Wikipedia link on Operation Rescue :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rescue_(Kansas)

    R L

  55. Tully Says:

    Here, let me cut one part of this debate short: Roeder WAS a regular with the OR crowd over the last several years at their Tiller clinic protests. If you keep holding events and a person keeps showing up for them and you keep welcoming them, he’s definitely “connected” and not just electronically. His participation in OR events went far past making a few chat board comments. Roeder was also a “militia type” who did time in prison for possessing bombs. He was released from prison early after winning an appeal claiming his vehicle was illegally searched. From my info, even other militia types thought he was a scary whackjob and deep-fried nutburger, especially on the subject of abortion.

    OpRescue itself has fairly openly encouraged the stalking of Tiller and his clinic personnel by posting their photos and those of their cars to the web labelled as “Baby Killers!” Combine with their rhetoric and tell me there’s no basis for further investigation. Heh. There may not be enough there for indictments, but there’s certainly enough for some thorough investigation. Hope it costs them millions in legal fees, at least.

    Max the Cat: The info you seek is HERE. If the KS Dept of Corrections server isn’t overwhelmed.

  56. michael reynolds Says:

    Tully:

    If he regularly attended OR events then I agree, he was “connected.” That definitely qualifies.

    But I don’t see how we can prosecute OR if all they did was talk. If they provided a weapon, a dollar, a plan, co-operation, etc… then absolutely. ess than that seems like protected free speech, however hateful.

  57. Tully Says:

    Agnostick: Informed guess is that OR locked down their servers before anyone could copy out the entire contents of their web site, which is truly vile. I suspect they are shutting the barn doors after the horses have fled.

    I also suspect they are spending the day “scrubbing” their web site of anything that could potentially be used against htem as evidence in, say, a RICO or other conspiracy prosecution.

  58. Tully Says:

    Incitement is also a crime, Michael, when there is any reasonable expectation that the person(s) being incited will act on said speech. OR did more than talk–many members have been previously prosecuted for crimes involving George’s clinic. See follow-up comment.

  59. gerryf Says:

    I believe in a woman’s right to choose. I believe in Operation Rescue’s right to oppose abortion.

    I believe the acts of Scott Roeder are not the fault of Operation Rescue. To often, people want to shift blame from the actor to a broader group. I don’t approve of Operation Rescue’s methods, but no where has OR ever advocated killing anyone to stop killing.

    OR didn’t give him the gun or know of his plans. If you have an issue with things that OR does, I’ve got no problem with that, but people are responsible for their own actions even when spurred on by extreme views of others.

  60. michael reynolds Says:

    On the political front GOP senators just suddenly lost interest in pressing Sotomayor on Roe.

  61. Al Says:

    This killing now opens the door for the (Militant) Abortion proponents to declare open season on Pro-Life organizations. I will be willing to wager that we have not seen the end of the killings on both sides of the Abortion Aisle.
    I hope I am wrong !!!!

  62. John Burke Says:

    I don’t doubt for a moment that Roemer (if he’s the killer) will turn out to bed “connected” to Operation Rescue and like as not to a dozen other anti-abortion groups, as well. But so what? In my youth as a left-leaning anti-war protester and civil rights activist, I as personally “connected” to all manner of Communists, Trotskyists, Maoists and other radicals. In fact, I as acquainted with a number of people who later became involved in serious illegal activities.

    So tell me: am I and the thousands of others who participated in those movements guilty by “connection” to the violent crimes committed by the Weather Underground, the Black Liberation Army, and other such groups?

    It takes some moral courage — which the right wing of that time sorely lacked — NOT to make such a “connection.” I guess we’ll see in the next few days whether today’s left is more courageous.

  63. Rich Says:

    anthesis Says:

    May 31st, 2009 at 9:26 pm
    Abortion, like a vasectomy, is a personal decision that concerns only the person and the doctor.

    How many men would like to be told how many children they can father? Likewise, women don’t want to face a fate of living strapped to a delivery table.
    ***********************************
    WOW….I just threw up in my mouth a little bit!

    First, you are not “strapped” to a delivery table.
    Second, an overwhelming percentage of women do not consider Motherhood as a “fate” to be avoided at all costs.
    Third, there is a difference between a vasectomy and an abortion. A vasectomy, much like a condom, birth control pill, tubal ligation, abstinence, etc. is a RESPONSIBLE, PREVENTATIVE action meant to prevent conception. An abortion is a reaction made by an irresponsible individual who is too immature to accept the consequences for their actions.

    By the way, I don’t know if I like the idea that Justin considers that I am “connected” to him and Donkelphant just because I read a few posts here and comment on fewer than I read.

    If Simon and TheWord become involved in a physical altercation on the street due to a debate they had on this forum, would you take responsibility for their actions?

  64. Jeremy from NJ Says:

    John Burke: You make an interesting point. One that I hope will be discussed in this thread by people much smarter than me.

    Rich:

    An abortion is a reaction made by an irresponsible individual who is too immature to accept the consequences for their actions.

    Really? Every one? There’s no middle ground to be found here? No exceptions for rape or illness?

    Why is it so difficult to have rational, adult conversations about this?

  65. theWord Says:

    Speaking for one half of the Simon the Word mentioned by Rich it wouldn’t happen. I don’t think Simon is unhinged, I just don’t agree with him often. Furthermore Justin has at no point pushed either of us to hate or demonize the other.

    OR is likely not legally responsible for the part they have played but that does not by any streetch mean they are helpful or responsible members of the debate. The latest attack (if they are connected even to Simon’s standards) means 3 attacks resulting in two murders with a common thread to that group. Imagine NORML with a similar track record and what would happen to them.

    At some point the vitriol is the match that lights the fuse of a crazy. Does that mean the organization did it? No. But after Tim McVeigh & Co., the attacks on abortion clinics for years including murders and the attack on the church in TN and I notice a trend. They are all right wing and spout the talking points of right wing hate radio. For those who say Maddow and Olbermann are equivalent, get back to me when any in their audience commits one of these despicable acts and parrot back any talking points from them. I am aware of NONE. Let me know if you know of any.

  66. Boston Corbett Says:

    I don’t think OR issued plastic membership cards for those in good standing.

    And this from the Pitch magazine in KC.
    http://blogs.pitch.com/plog/2009/06/inside_the_car_of_the.php

    The phone number is written on an envelope with the name “Cheryl” and “Op Rescue.” Cheryl is Cheryl Sullenger, Operation Rescue’s senior policy adviser, who in 1988 was convicted of conspiring to bomb a California abortion clinic. She served two years in prison.

    Sullenger tells The Pitch that she hasn’t spoken with Roeder recently.

    “No, he hasn’t called me recently,” Sullenger said. “No.”

    ***********

    I guess Chris should have written “connected, but not recently.”

  67. R L Says:

    Rich,
    Justin never said that Operation Rescue bares ANY or all of the blame for the shooter’s actions. What Justin did say was : “His name is Scott Roeder and it looks like he’s involved with Operation Rescue in some way. Obviously that doesn’t mean they’re to blame …”
    So, are you defending Operation Rescue’s point of view that they expect their people to act against abortion doctors as though they were murderers or are you hung up on the fact that Justin mentioned the shooter may be affilaited with Operation Rescue but he didn’t know 100 %, absolutely for sure ? I guess you’ll appologize when the facts come out that he is indeed affilaited with them …
    I’m guessing you are a solid anti-abortionist who supports the very strong, clearly radical rhetoric that Op Rescue spews but now that a radical act has been committed by one of your clan, you are going to distance OP Rescue and yourself from him. You should have the guts to say so if in your heart you feel that Tiller got what he deserved .. or that in God’s eye, justice was done.
    Seems odd that an organization that is anti-baby-killing should encourage very radical action : “If you believe abortion is murder, act like it’s murder.”
    if you don’t consider that barely disguised double talk to hurt/kill abortion supporters, you are either really naive or deluding yourself.

  68. Rich Says:

    Jeremy,
    Good point – I had 90+% of abortions that are nothing more than retroactive birth control* in mind when I made that comment.
    (*Perspectives on Sexual and Reproductive Health, 2005)

    If you look at the breakdowns in polls regarding abortions, you will generally find that 15% (+/-) think abortion should be completely legal, on demand, no questions asked, for any reason at all.

    About 15% (+/-) think it should be illegal regardless of the reason.

    The other 70% or so think they should be legal in cases of rape, incest and to protect the health/life of the mother. They also, to varying degrees, think there should be more restrictions on access to abortions, generally disapprove of late term & partial birth abortions, believe babies born alive following a botched abortion should be given necessary medical care to keep them alive, believe there should be parental consent required if the girl is a minor, etc.
    (gallup poll, 2007)

    Word,
    I was being sarcastic, as I’m sure you know.

    I do agree that there is a history of violence against abortion clinics & doctors, which upsets me greatly. I am trying to figure out where you went from someone loosley “connected” with Operation Rescue to someone “spouting the talking points of right wing hate radio”. Please link to who/what he was quoting…you have me intrigued, now.

    Folks like Roeder are as misguided and unrepresentative of “right-wingers” as the those who perpetrate violence on behalf of “left-wingers” – such as individuals/groups who attack military recruiters (just happened in Arkansas earlier today), veterans (although it DID seem to be the primary m.o. of war protestors in the 60′s and early 70′s…), people who wear furs, little old ladies who support Prop 8 in California, hunters, KFC, medical researchers, conservatives invited to speak in public venues, etc…WOW – that’s getting to be a long list.

    I think I’ll stop now before I convince myself that maybe those folks DO represent the core left in this country!! I wonder how many of them get their political news primarily from Jon Stewart?!? LOL!

    On a more serious note, though – and, please believe me that I’m just as upset about violence perpetrated by those who claim to be “pro-lifers” as you are. Abortion, it seems to me, to be the primary (maybe the only?) hot-button issue that incites emotion to the point of violence in “right wingers”. On the left, however, the list longer and widely varied.

    …and wtf with the Weather Underground?!? The founding jackass is a professor of education is corrupt-icago?? Talk about someone who probably should’ve faced the fate of being strapped down to some kind of table…..

  69. Rich Says:

    RL,
    ??!!?? ROFLMAO !!!!!

    You are guessing an awful lot, and are wrong about it ALL, kool-aid drinker.

    I know nothing of O.R. If they DO have the “point of view that they expect their people to act against abortion doctors as though they were murderers”, then I vehemently disagree with thier position. However, one thing I WONT do us use Wikipedia as my “source” for what any organization stands for, tool.

    Regardless, I don’t see anything in my post where you could possibly reach the conclusions you made.

    My notion, if you cared to read carefully, was with the notion Justin put forth that, simply because Roeder posted come comments on OR’s blog, they he’s “connected” to them, as he stated in the original post and his comment submitted in the discussion part.

    I wonder if Justin feels “connected” to you in this instance…..hmmm.

    Your post regarding my statement is SO far off the planet that I’ll be laughing about it for the rest of the week!! And, yes, I’m laughing AT you – not WITH you, fool.

    hahahahahahaha…

  70. ExiledIndependent Says:

    …oh, and Bush wasn’t “right wing.” Last paragraph seems to connect the former President with some form of conservatism or another, which is simply not true. So not surprising that Bush commissioned the study. Conservatives are more of a threat to the GOPs bid for power than Democrats are.

  71. theWord Says:

    Rich
    My point was that OR is so outside of the mainstream that the Anti Abortion groups did everything they could to distance themselves from him today. That said there is a lot of really offensive prolife action IMO. When you can’t show a flag draped coffin but you can line streets for blocks with 3 foot pics of aborted fetuses there is something wrong with the concept of free speech. Calling people mass murderers and Tiller the Killer and worse than Nazis etc are gasoline on a nutjob fire. The guy who attacked the church in TN reportedly had one of Beck or O’Reilly’s books in his car if I remember correctly. I just don’t see or have heard of people watching MSNBC and killing people and quoting Maddow or Olberann.

    On the recruiting station. Talk about a red herring. Is there any indication on what happened at the recruiting station? I haven’t seen anything so I think it is a much larger stretch than what Justin was pilloried for. We know nothing on the motivation, target or anything that I have seen. It is really easy though. The guy who did it was wrong. If some group said here is where the murderers are and someone should do something THEY WERE WRONG.

    For Tully-
    I found a post on Hullabaloo http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2009/05/they-cannot-know-by-digby-i-just-want.html. It says what I think all should acknowledge on both sides. It’s a lot less black and white for any procedure and someone not in the situation and clueless to all the facts should probably filter themselves. I told my wife that if I were ever in the situation that Schiavo was in she should kill me and anyone who got in the way. The arrogance of these people is mind-boggling.

    Here’s the testimony of one of Tiller’s patients. It doesn’t sound like an irresponsible or easy decision to my ears. I realize there are those who think they have the right to force others through this kind of pain but I find it unconscionable. Can’t we agree there are tough decisions that no one would want imposed on them? It’s tough enough for people to make them on their own with a doctor and whoever’s council they choose. Can’t we try to deal with the issue more honestly

    Here’s what they said
    our joy was turned to unspeakable sadness when the new sonogram showed conjoined twins. Conjoined twins alone is not what was so difficult but the way they were joined meant that at best only one child would survive the surgery to separate them and the survivor would more than likely live a brief and painful life filled with surgery and organ transplants. We were advised that our options were to deliver into the world a child who’s life would be filled with horrible pain and suffering or fly out to Wichita Kansas and to terminate the pregnancy under the direction of Dr. George Tiller.

    We made an informed decision to go to Kansas. One can only imagine the pain borne by a woman who happily carries a child for 8 months only to find out near the end of term that the children were not to be and that she had to make the decision to terminate the pregnancy and go against everything she had been taught to believe was right. This was what my wife had to do. Dr. Tiller is a true American hero. The nightmare of our decision and the aftermath was only made bearable by the warmth and compassion of Dr. Tiller and his remarkable staff. Dr. Tiller understood that this decision was the most difficult thing that a woman could ever decide and he took the time to educate us and guide us along with the other two couples who at the time were being forced to make the same decision after discovering that they too were carrying children impacted by horrible fetal anomalies.

    I wonder how many of them get their political news primarily from Jon Stewart?!?

    I would take Jon Stewart over FOX and Right Wing radio EVERY SINGLE TIME.

    You ended with
    On a more serious note….
    You only had to go back 40 years for the Weather Underground. Anyone you can point to in the last couple of decades who killed someone in this country? Anarchists don’t count. They seem to hate the Right and Left.

  72. Bring It On! » Blog Archive » Hate Speech and Its Consequences Says:

    [...] he provided medical care, including late-term abortions, at his clinic. Roeder has documented ties to Operation Rescue, the so-called pro-life (except for people who disagree with them) fringe group. So this appears to [...]

  73. Tully Says:

    tWord–Unabomber, who was a a Neo-Luddite environmentalist. Also the ELF, which has only managed to avoid multiple fatalities in their bombings and arsons and such by sheer fortune and ineptitude. Ditto with the ALF.

  74. Tully Says:

    Oh, and for the most part the mainstream pro-life groups have long disassociated themselves from OpRescue. All of the mainstream pro-life groups condemn violence as a tactic. Several pro-life orgs even have standing rewards (big ones, even) for information leading to the arrest and conviction of anyone committing violent crimes against abortion providers and clinics.

  75. michael reynolds Says:

    So far the right-wing terrorists are out-killing the left wing terrorists by a very substantial margin. 168 from Oklahoma, 6 in anti-choice violence.

    The Unabomber killed 3. And wedging him into the left wing is stretching the point a bit.

    174 to 3.

  76. Tully Says:

    CPD, Michael. Extend it past the borders and the count climbs quite quickly. Especially once you realize that huge numbers of them defy the facile left/right categorizations. Or are you rooting on the home-team scores?

    Nutz is nutz. We need fewer nutz. Over-the-top hyperbole stimulates nutz. Don’t use it. Simple, no? At least if you’re not nutz.

  77. theWord Says:

    Tully- I did say something about anarchists. I don’t know that any of them would call themselves liberals. I don’t know any liberals who see them as part of the party. I did mention that not all anti abortion people are like OR. Anti abortionists are definitely at the Right table though.

    Luddites are not at any table that I know of. I could just as easily say that he was a conservative since he was against science and modern society but we both know that would be one hell of a stretch.

  78. Tully Says:

    One can have endless fun and “prove” anything by quibbling with definitonal labelling, tWord. And the wings do just that, emphasis on the “endless.” The other side is always worse!
    Nutz is still nutz. Neo-Luddites, ALF, and ELF all fall fairly into the leftist econutz. But it wouldn’t prove anything if they were rightnutz. They’d still be nutz.

    The modern anarchists are decidedly leftist, though I question how truly anarchistic the more organized ones can be…. ;-)

  79. Chris Says:

    Please, “anarchists” and luddites, and other anti-establishment groups are more libertarian than liberal. And libertarians almost always side with what they think are republican ideals.

  80. Tully Says:

    QED.

  81. Daniel Says:

    A war of numbers is kind of pointless, but I want to participate lol! So here I go, KKK, Neo Nazis, War on Terror, Killing homosexuals, and as far as serial killers I can top unabomber, Ted Bundy was a very supportive republican lol. I have a concealed permit so lets throw in the NRA as well, how can a hippy be more dangerous than a man with a concealed weapon? That was a top of the head list that was most recent in 25 years. We do need less nuts, but I find nuts are more concentrated around certain ideologies, at least thats what my sociology and psychology studies have found. I also feel that people need to really think about what murder is, and why it is wrong or why it is right. Essentially it is only wrong because you have been taught that it was wrong and right in certain circumstances and your experience has reinforced your opinion, this goes for everyone. Killing a man in war and killing a man on the street are both murder, but two very different reasons. In essence there is no right or wrong, only what we believe. That is why we have laws, which allow someone to define what is acceptable and what is not. Currently abortion is legal, killing the abortion doctor or inciting someone else to do it is not.

  82. theWord Says:

    Tully I have to hand it to you. I see how Luddites are as closely associated with Democrats as antiAbortionists are with Republicans and they both have the same influence on their respective parties. I was so blind.

    I think everyone should have seen the wisdom in that one.

    I will agree that a nut is a nut but, they do have influence in only one party.

  83. R L Says:

    Rich,
    So it all comes down to that Justin didn’t fact check well enough to meet your standards … are you budding jornalist perhaps ? a law student maybe.. someone interested in un-biased reporting ?
    let’s see .. You have no opinion on Op Rescue, or abortion and, in your book,
    the other Roeder ties to Op Rescue and his prior criminal activity are not to be interpretted as any reflection on his choice to shoot Tiller …
    You are apparently a pretender who likes to nit pick … someone who asks questions but doesn’t take a real stance on anything and doesn’t try to get answers to questions … are you ex-miltary ? they are good at making people passive participants in bad bevahior … maybe you should run for office .. we need more people who bend whichever way the wind blows and like to hear themselves pontificate … and of course your opinion means more because you are just so smart. a know-it-all type …. over-proud to the point of pomposity. What ever happened to objectivity.

  84. theWord Says:

    Rich-

    It now appears that the killing at the recruiting station was not in any way related to liberials. It was, once again, related to religion.

  85. Tully Says:

    Nuts only have influence in one party, tWord? Wow. Wanna try that again? And when did “party” become a synonym for “wing?” Last I looked crazy was pretty independent of party, despite the claims of partisans. Did I ever mention “party” in this context? Let me check…nope. Sure didn’t.

    Yes, the Neo-Luddites are decidedly leftwing and a major part of the Greens. Anarchism as visible today is also mostly a left-wing phenom following the Bakuninist goals of revolutionary socialism, though there are still some anarcho-capitalists around, most notably in the more rabid libertarian circles.

    In any case with Roeder we seem to have an obvious nutburger, one with a criminal history and an ongoing record of association with the current incarnation of Operation Rescue. He reportedly visited Shelly Shannon (the nutburger who shot George Tiller in 1993) in prison. The name and number of convicted clinic bomber Cheryl Sullenger was on his dashboard. Sullenger is OpRescue’s “Senior Policy Analyst.” (Her previous OR title was “Outreach Coordinator.” Did she reach out to Roeder?)

    You can check out some of the tactics OR openly admits to HERE. You can see why many mainstream pro-life groups have been distancing themselves from OR over the last few years.

    OR’s website (I will NOT link) is back up today, and it’s been “redesigned.” Notably missing in the new incarnation is the left sidebar that led to the forums, and several header menu items such as staff listings. Someone’s had the scrub brush out. Since basic tracing seems to indicate that it was hosted offsite and routed through dedicated external servers, that may be much less effective than they think. One even suspects that federal investigators may already be in possession of full site backups and subsequent changes from last week to today from the PDNS1.ULTRADNS.NET servers at NeuaStar Inc in Virginia and The Planet servers in Dallas TX. Not to mention Google caches and such.

    OR’s news release says that Roeder is “not affiliated” with OR. One suspects a rather lawyeresque definition of “affiliated” is being employed.

  86. Tully Says:

    There are no religious liberals? You seem to be speculating beyond the evidence there. The police are saying “appears to be political and religious motives” without being more specific.

    In any case, if no obvious association with others the initial presumption is lone nut, to be investigated and/or confirmed.

  87. Rich Says:

    RL,
    Are you talking to me or are you looking in the mirror and talking about yourself??? You are SOOOO far off of the mark it’s hilarious! “budding journalist”? “law student”? “pretender”? “ex military”? aspiring politician? “solid anti-abortionist”? I think you need to polish your crystal ball. Do you need a few more darts to throw at your list of possible names to call me?

    You are taking things you THINK I said, twisting them around, then calling me a “know it all”, “pompous”, “nit-picking” “pretender” who “does not have the guts” to say what you THINK I feel. That’s f%$#ing hilarious!!!

    fact-checking?!? I didn’t say anything about his fact-checking – not sure where you got that idea from. The only thing I said was that just because someone posted a comment on a blog does NOT necessarily mean he was acting on the behalf of the organization that hosts the blog.

    I think, if Roeder is, in fact, the person who killed Tiller (and it seems he is), he needs to face the maximum punishment – hopefully, capital.

    I’d never heard of OR before, and I don’t really care enough right now to learn more about them. I was not defending them in any way – if anything, I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Ever heard of “innocent until proven guilty”?? Unlike you, I don’t believe everything I read on a blog or on Wikipedia (are your freaking serious?!?) and go off spouting about it like an unthinking imbicile.

    No, I don’t think Tiller deserved to be murdered in cold blood in front of his family. It does appear that he may have been guilty of violating Kansas law, but that is a matter for their attorney general and the legal system, not Roeder. However, I dont see how my opinion on that has the slightest thing to do with anything.

    Implying that my being sceptical of any “involvement” between OR and Roeder equates to approving of the murder of an individual is a leap of logic that would’ve helped Evil Kneivel clear the Snake River Canyon.

    If they are, in fact, involved, then they should be held accountable. I was surprised with some of the comments in their presser – they appear to to only be half-heartedly distancing themselved from the killer. They don’t seem sorry that their rhetoric may have incited an unstable individual to kill someone. That is very disturbing. People like that do a great dis-service for their “cause” – regardless of which idiology that “cause” originates from.

    I’m looking forward to your reply so I have something to laugh at this afternoon!! Don’t forget to take your blood pressure meds first – I don’t want you to stroke-out on us!!

  88. Tully Says:

    It does appear that he may have been guilty of violating Kansas law, but that is a matter for their attorney general and the legal system, not Roeder.

    Nothing so easy as slandering the dead. Few people have ever undergone such intensive and extensive investigation and scrutiny by legal authorities as Tiller had over the last decade. On the one occasion in which agendized state officials brought misdemeanor charges of claimed technical violations, he was acquitted by the jury in about an hour….which included their lunch time.

    There is no doubt that Roeder was “associated” with OR in some ways. The real question is, did OR people incite or assist him in committing this murder? If so, did they do so incidentally or knowingly? See link in comment above about OR’s admitted tactics — what others might they have been using they don’t admit to?

  89. the Word Says:

    Tully–
    Nuts only have influence in one party, tWord?

    The Religious Right had weekly calls with the Bush administration. (You know the ones who said things like New Orleans deserved it because of gays and liberals) Bachman and Shimkus are elected members of that party. People like Ann Coulter routinely are invited into official GOP events. Years ago John Schmitz an American Nazi was elected in CA by that party. A number of them (elected) think the world is only 6,000 years old.

    On the Left, there are people who you disagree with their positions on. They don’t to my knowledge support any nutty views unless nutty has been meant to be expanded to mean “anything I don’t agree with”.

    It would be unfair to say that all Republicans are nuts.

    You then said
    Yes, the Neo-Luddites are decidedly leftwing and a major part of the Greens…

    You prove my point. They are Greens(if they actually are) because they aren’t a part of the Democratic Party

    In any case with Roeder we seem to have an obvious nutburger, one with a

  90. rachel Says:

    No, I don’t think Tiller deserved to be murdered in cold blood in front of his family. It does appear that he may have been guilty of violating Kansas law,

    It appears that some people are sore losers that refuse to accept “not guilty” for an answer.

  91. the Word Says:

    Tully as to religious liberals. I at times think that regardless of the response you could stretch it to be something worth arguing about (an admirable quality :-))

    Of course there are religious liberals. They don’t to my knowledge have a record of killing people in the US. A recent convert to anything tends to be the most zealous of a group and so a recent convert to Islam who tries to kill people who (perhaps in their mind) represent a struggle against “their people” makes “sense” from a religious angle. It is a HUGE stretch to find any liberal angle here. Unless you are struggling mightily to be disingenuous.

  92. Tully Says:

    tWord, you should get a political lexicon so you can track the players. You are conflating and equating “nuts” with “Religious Right.” Your bad. As shown, there are plenty of nuts to go around.

    Yep, there are nuts who are registered and vote Republican. And there are nuts who are registered and vote Democrat. You want to disclaim all the latter as voting Dem and claim all the former as THE official GOP in entirety. No dice. As noted, the political spectrum is more complicatred than Us and Them. That kind of categorical demonization is sheer BS.

    And no, by “Greens” I do not refer to a political party, but to a large leftist environmentalist movement that generally supports Dems. If you quit trying to conflate wings with parties you’ll find it’s a lot more complicated than you wish to claim.

    On the Left, there are people who you disagree with their positions on. They don’t to my knowledge support any nutty views unless nutty has been meant to be expanded to mean “anything I don’t agree with”.

    ROFLMAO. Once again the attempt to sanitize one’s own side while applying different principles to the other side. No sale. Regardless of which party you’re with, you’re gonna be sharing it with some nutburgers.

  93. the Word Says:

    Tully
    If we ever meet we could continue this over a drink but it is rather pointless here. I would be curious as to who is a nut on the Left. I might even agree with you.

  94. Tully Says:

    Of course there are religious liberals. They don’t to my knowledge have a record of killing people in the US.

    tWord, a true anti-abortionist (something I decidedly am not) would immediately respond that “religious liberals” such as George Tiller (a devout Lutheran, well respected in his congregation, died in his church) murder hundreds of babies in America every day. See what difference a POV can make?

    Stepping just a little farther out to Latin America, you might want to check out Liberation Theology. Of course, as with all groups advocating violence they say their violence is justified, just as Scott Roeder would say. And there are so many in all areas that treat politics as religion in a fashion closely matching the definiton of same. Been to any party rallies lately? Either party?

    The Left is full of nutburgers. So is the Right. And they’re in the Great Middle as well. Welcome to reality. We all have a tendency to dismiss the nutburgers that are in our own area of politics as just being ordinary nutburgers, while the nutburgers in other areas of politics are somehow something much more sinister. Personally, I would certainly classify a major portion of ALL radicals, any persuasion, as being somewhat nutburgers. Just my humble O, of course. Your mileage may vary.

  95. the Word Says:

    Tully
    Mind if I just start calling you Stretch?

  96. Rich Says:

    Rachel,
    Thanks for taking words out of context. Just copy-n-paste as you deem necessary to fit your pre-conceived notions…..

    In case you were not able to read the rest of my sentence (let alone the rest of the post), I went on to say that any violations of the law that he *may* have committed were a matter of the legitimate legal system, not a nutcase vigilante jackass – regardless of whether or not he got his “marching orders” from OR, his dog or any other voice he may have heard in his head.

    It appears to ME that *some* people don’t care to read a post for what it is and are inclined to make shit up.

    Tully,
    I didn’t realize that stating a fact was slanderous. Is it not true that he MAY have participated in illegal abortions? Do you disagree with me when I say that the determination for whether or not that is true is the responosibility of the legal system?

    I was not aware that he had been completely exonorated of any wrong-doing. There are no active investigations or legal proceedings against him whatsoever? If not, and if he was exonorated, then good for him.

    Regardless, his murder was wrong and his killer needs to pay the price. My deepest sympathies go out to Tully’s family, friends and associates.

  97. Rich Says:

    Oops…Sorry, Tully.

    I meant that my deepest sympathies to out to TILLER’S family, friends and associates. Not yours!!

    Sorry for the typo….

  98. Tully Says:

    Rich, on that very same basis I may clearly and publicly state that you MAY be guilty of fornicating with barnyard livestock and drowning baby kittehs for giggles in your spare time. Now, you MAY say that this is not true (and I’d even believe you) but that’s exactly the standard you’re openly employing in imputing crimes too George Tiller. But unlike Tiller, you don’t have a decade or more of intensive and extensive state investigations poring over every detail of your life to clear you of the imputed charges, or quick jury acquittals on the few charges that were brought. (At least, I assume you don’t.)

    And BTW, “friends and associates” includes me and parts of my family. I knew George for well over three decades, and I liked him and respected his courage and convictions. He died about a mile from my home. Hadn’t seen much of him over the last decade or so, thanks to his quite understandable reclusiveness. I still don’t have a problem with the peaceful pro-lifers. I have a big problem with OR and their associated nutburgers — such as Scott Roeder.

  99. Agnostick Says:

    According to a report from WIBW-TV, the CBS affiliate in Topeka, Roeder “is a familiar name to Topeka-area law enforcement, not necessarily for his anti-abortion view, but for his anti-government activity.”

    Agnostick
    [email protected]

  100. pnyikos Says:

    Tully, your link on the tactics of the OR Kansas leader only reveals peaceful activities by him, and a bunch of editorializing using the word “intimidation”. He has denounced the murder of Tiller:
    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16155
    excerpt:
    Troy Newman, President of the Kansas-based Operation Rescue said in a statement that his organization “has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller’s family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.”
    [end of excerpt]
    How do you square this with your undocumented claim about Cheryl Sullenberger?
    And as for Tiller’s clean-as-a-whistle record: he hadn’t eve been brought to trial on the worst charges:
    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16155
    and in his trial for other charges, he gave conflicting testimony:
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09032607.html
    and this is related to a pending set of allegations against Tiller’s license:
    http://catholicexchange.com/2009/03/30/117113/
    Finally, if you believe Scott Roeder had deep ties with OR just on the basis of his having posted once to an OR blog–which is all the evidence the turkey who started this whole discussion had–you are very gullible.

  101. pnyikos Says:

    Oops, that second link should have been:
    http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=468430
    This is the one where it talks about the strongest charges against Tiller having been dismissed without having been judged on their merits, for jurisdictional reasons.

  102. Tully Says:

    I made no “undocumented claims” about Sullenger. She’s a convicted clinic bomber who spent two years in federal prison before becoming OR’s “Outreach Coordinator” and then “Senior Policy Analyst.” And her phone number was found on the dashboard of Roeder’s car when he was arrested. Those are documented facts.

    The veracity of the rest of your post is about at the same level–the best you seem to be able to do is dredge up anti-abortion screeds and innuendos. I would urge anyone inclined to believe you to follow that link to the 2004 article and reconcile it with “peaceful” tactics. It shows a consistent pattern of stalking and harrassment.

    And no, I don’t believe Troy Newman’s after-the-fact statement after having had him right up the road from me for years. He’s playing CYA. He denounces “vigilantism” after years of preaching it.

    Next news flash: Roeder was twice spotted vandalizing a clinic in Kansas City over Memorial Day weekend, and again last Saturday. His description and license plate number were turned into the FBI.

  103. pnyikos Says:

    Tully, did you read the so-called “anti-abortion screeds” or did you just look at the names of the websites and summarily conclude that that is what they contained? If you claim you read them, please explain how the first one is an “anti-abortion screed”.

    I did read the 2004 article and would like to know just what in it needs reconciling with the statement about peaceful, legal means. His tactics may not be very “peaceful” in your way of looking at them, but by those criteria, neither were the means of Martin Luther King.

    About Sullenger: the OR website is up and running now, but so far I have not been able to verify your story; however, my search turned up a very strongly worded statement denouncing a NARAL ad that accused OR of violence:
    http://www.operationrescue.org/index.php?s=Sullenger+bombing
    Excerpt:
    Operation Rescue has an impeccable record of peaceful pro-life activism. Since the mid-1980’s there have been well over 70,000 arrests for peaceful civil disobedience in the fine tradition of the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. There has never been a conviction of a violent act by a pro-life supporter at any Operation Rescue event in the history of the organization. [end of excerpt]

    And I close with a statement by Newman from the following page:
    http://www.operationrescue.org/archives/operation-rescue-statement-regarding-suspect-in-tiller-killing/

    Scott Roeder has never been a member, contributor, or volunteer with Operation Rescue. Mr. Roeder may have posted to our open blog web site, as have thousands of members of the public, including those with pro-abortion views, but he is not affiliated with this organization.

    We deplore the criminal actions with which Mr. Roeder is accused.
    The pro-life ethic is to value all human life from the moment of conception until natural death. Operation Rescue has diligently and successfully worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see to it that abortionists around the nation are brought to justice. Without due process, there can be no justice.
    In spite of these horrific events, we remain dedicated to working through all peaceful and legal means available to bring an end to the killing of innocent children through abortion.

  104. rachel Says:

    Rachel,
    Thanks for taking words out of context. Just copy-n-paste as you deem necessary to fit your pre-conceived notions…..

    In case you were not able to read the rest of my sentence (let alone the rest of the post), I went on to say that any violations of the law that he *may* have committed were a matter of the legitimate legal system, not a nutcase vigilante jackass – regardless of whether or not he got his “marching orders” from OR, his dog or any other voice he may have heard in his head.

    Roeder and the rest of the anti-choice nuts harrassing Dr. Tiller were the sore losers who wouldn’t take “not guilty” for an answer. If you think you’re one of them, that’s your problem.

  105. Agnostick Says:

    First, Tully says:

    “I made no “undocumented claims” about Sullenger. She’s a convicted clinic bomber who spent two years in federal prison before becoming OR’s “Outreach Coordinator” and then “Senior Policy Analyst.””

    then pnyikos states:

    “About Sullenger: the OR website is up and running now, but so far I have not been able to verify your story; “

    Here ya go…

    “McElroy pointed out that Sullenger was convicted along with her husband in 1987 of conspiring to bomb an abortion clinic. Sullenger said she has admitted her guilt and no longer condones such violent acts. She was given a reduced sentence of two-and-a-half years in prison and ended up serving two.”

    Agnostick
    [email protected]

  106. pnyikos Says:

    Thank you very much, Agnostick. I see that Sullenger explicitly abandoned violence already in 2002, and was being accused only of nonviolent “intimidation” in a 1999 case, but it looks like the case for even that much is very weak. Planned Parenthood routinely uses the word “intimidation” to describe actions as peaceful as praying silently on a public sidewalk near the clinic.

  107. Tully Says:

    Nice apologia, pnyikos. Found it on OpRescue’s very own web site, did you? Gosh, I bet you believe all those guys in prison who say they’re innocent are telling the truth too. After all, they SAY they are!

    No sale. I live where they operate.

    So, what part of Cheryl Deann Sullenger being convicted of a terrorist clinic bombing conspiracy and spending two years in federal prison (BOP#10664-198) are you contesting? How about her husband Randall Ray Sullenger (BOP#10662-198) who served three years? Or are you saying she has never been the “Outreach Coordinator” or “Senior Policy Analyst” of OR? Because, you know, these facts are DOCUMENTED.

    Oh, but she’s “renounced violence.” Uh huh. Much like dieters have “renounced” chocolate chip cookies, no doubt. Why wouldn’t I believe a convicted terrorist?

  108. pnyikos Says:

    Tully, you lovable middle-of-the-roader :-) do you believe that “Once a clinic bomber, always a clinic bomber?” Do you really think people are incapable of completely repudiating their past? Are you familiar with the true story of Wiberforce, who is the central character in the movie “Amazing Grace?”

    Look at the time frame. Bombing in 1987, repentance no later than 2002 but probably already in 1999, after having served prison time. If she had evaded the law, the statute of limitations AFAIK would have run out already. The law is more forgiving than you, by the looks of it.

  109. Tully Says:

    repentance no later than 2002 but probably already in 1999, after having served prison time

    Ah, 1999! That would be the year Sullenger was served with a restraining order telling her to quit making death threats to clinic personnel and patients, no? Still no sale, oh persistent and peripetatic perpetual apologist for radical anti-abortionists.

    Sullenger’s story has changed several times now. First, her name on the official OR press release claiming Roder was never in any way associated with OR. Then it was “Well, I think I’ve seen him around.” Then it was “Well, yeah, I know who he is, but I haven’t spoken with him recently.” Now it’s “Well, I talked to him every single day two months ago during the time Tiller was the most publicly findable he has been in years and I helped him keep day-to-day tabs on Tiller’s public appearances, but, you know, that’s not recently.”

    And my favorite quote from her is, “Who knew? Who knew, you know what I mean?”

    Yeah, who knew? Apparently, anyone who was acquainted with Roeder and was paying attention. Anyone who read the “justifiable homicide” advocating Prayer and Action News, where Roeder several published op/eds. The militia members who were spooked by him.

    Whether or not Sullenger had any direct role in inciting or encouraging Roeder is up to investigators to discover. But oh my yes, our violence-renouncing clinic-bombing conspirator was indeed associated with Roeder, and Roeder was indeed associated with OR.

  110. pnyikos Says:

    Are those exact quotes, Tully, or just creative paraphrasals? In either case, I’d like to see what your sources are for them and the allegations of “death threats”. Unlike some of your earlier posts, this last one has nothing to link to.

    By the way, do you maintain that a mere conversation creates an “association”? Would you like it if you were accused of “being associated” with each of the sundry people who have posted to this thread so far?

    You say, “Yeah, who knew? Apparently, anyone who was acquainted with Roeder and was paying attention. Anyone who read the `justifiable homicide’ advocating Prayer and Action News, where Roeder several published op/eds. The militia members who were spooked by him.”

    First, you make it sound like Roeder was an open book to anyone who had long conversations with him and paid attention. Then suddenly you are talking about a much smaller circle of people, who happen to read everything posted to Prayer and Action News, and the even smaller group of militia. What do you think the chances are that Sullenger fits into either category?

    Finally: if Sullenger is the ONLY Operations Rescue member you’ve been able to dig up dirt on in cyberspace, where does that leave the claims that OR is a terrorist organization or even one that condones violence?

  111. Tully Says:

    Finally: if Sullenger is the ONLY Operations Rescue member you’ve been able to dig up dirt on in cyberspace, where does that leave the claims that OR is a terrorist organization or even one that condones violence?

    Since I’ve made neither of those specific claims, your objections are both groundless and diversionary. I have no inclination to do any research for you–you are perfectly capable of doing it yourself, if only to look for pettifogging interpretations and/or deny it exists. You have the resources. If you are inclined to continue your years-long campaign of being an articulate apologist for radical anti-abortionists, don’t let me slow you down. We all need a good laugh now and then and we already know the hallmarks of the diversionary apologist troll.

    EX: I note you have not addressed the debunking of your original counter-claims against me, namely that Cheryl Sullenger’s involvement with anti-abortion violence was undocumented (copiously shown) and that Roeder had had prior involvement with OR (he did, likewise shown). Instead, when called on it you change the subject and press on to play defense attorney for The Cause. Oh, but Sullenger has renounced violence! Heh. Once again, no sale. Her word is no good in light of her history.

    One does note that Sullenger is hardly the only OR member with dirt on them. For example, Shelley Shannon, who shot Tiller in ’93, was an OR member and supporter who attended 35 clinic “operations” sponsored by OR and earned about 100 days of jail time therefrom before embarking on her clinic-bombing and doctor-shooting career. The late Paul deBarrie, oft-lionized in OR’s newsletters, was a staunch “justifiable homicide” advocate with a history of arrests for stalking. Paul Jennings Hill, who shot and killed doctor John Britton and clinic escort James Barrett and wounded Barrett’s wife was a long-time OR alumni who “graduated” to the Army of God shortly before the murders. As his execution approached, peace-loving OR leaders Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger put out a press release calling Hill a rescuer of the innocent, slammed the state of Florida for disaloowing Hill a “justifiable homicide defense,” and labeled his execution “nothing less than murder of a political prisoner.”

    Nope, no appearance of condoning or supporting violence and the violent there. Move along.

    I’ve said repeatedly that MOST AA people are earnestly non-violent in accordance with their stated principles, and it’s true. Yet somehow the violent ones keep turning out to have connections to OR. Like Roeder does. Which merits deeper investigation. Which I am pretty sure USDoJ will provide.

  112. the Word Says:

    http://mediamatters.org/research/200503220001

    Here’s some more info on Terry. Another link to a murderer that I don’t think was brought up earlier, James Kopp.

    I believe it is illegal for gang members to associate with known gang members after prison (I could be wrong) One would think OR might be worth a similar ban for these types.

    I think Tully has repeatedly pointed out that not all or even most anti abortion people are like this guy, but OR seems to have quite a track record. Is it just coincidence in your opinion?

  113. Tully Says:

    tWord, FYI: Terry no longers owns the trademark to OR. He lost it in the bankruptcy avoiding the hefty court judgements against him and the organization. Troy Newman of Operation Rescue California (also shut down by hefty court judgements) snapped it up and is now the head of OR in Wichita. Cheryl Sullenger was Newman’s aide-de camp in the previous org and followed him to Wichita when he mvoed there. Terry and Newman are not on speaking terms. Rumor is that neither are Terry and Flip Benham, who succeeded Terry as head of the Terry new OR organization, now called Operation Save America.

    OR in pretty much all its factions and incarnations has courted and recruited from the radical fringe of the Religious Right and the antigovernment movement. They only seem to condemn violence after murders when they’re the specific faction under investigation in the specific crime. Both of the organizations have ties to even more radical groups such as the Army of God and the fringer Constitution Party.

    USDoJ announced their probe today.

  114. pnyikos Says:

    Well, Tully, you certainly know how to shift the burden of proof onto the side that would have to prove a negative to satisfy you. I suppose you also believed it incumbent on Clarence Thomas to somehow prove that he had never said any sexually harassing things to Anita Hill.

    My words that you italicized were a general question not referring to any previous claims of yours. But I can see that you do not relish seriously dealing with it, so I guess I should have said “anyone posting to this or any other forum I have seen” rather than “you”.

    You did not debunk anything I said, you merely documented some of it after the fact. But apparently your unitalicized quotes from Cheryl WERE just creative paraphrasals . Care to document actual statements that they are based on?

    Even your italicized quote is taken out of context. Fortunately, I *was* able to find the probable source, no thanks to you: an article in the Kansas City Star, reposted here:

    Roeder’s anti-abortion activism scrutinized

    Paul Hill did his deed in 1993, no? When did Sullenger and Newman put out that (reprehensible, to be sure) press release about his trial?

    As for Shannon and Terry, they both quit OR long ago, apparently fed up with the lack of progress made in the fight against abortion in general and Tiller in particular. Once FACE became the law of the land, a lot of formerly peaceful folks apparently decided, “I might as well get hanged for a sheep as for a lamb.” But it seems to me like Sullenger and Newman went in the opposite direction.

    So, IMHO, the abortion rights people who pushed FACE through Congress are at least as responsible for the subsequent rise in violence against clinics and abortioninsts as the people who indulge in such rhetoric as calling abortion “murder”.

  115. Tully Says:

    Gee, Mr. Nykios, how could I ever doubt you? Oh yeah, I’ve seen your blatantly dishonest misrepresentations and pettifogging evasions and blatant apologias for anti-abortion violence all over the net for positively years and years. Maybe that has something to do with it.

    Terry didn’t “quit” OR, he lost the org in lawsuits over his “extra-legal” activities. Shelley Shannon never “quit” OR, she simply escalated away from their official events. Sullenger/Newman’s press release was issued in 2003, not in 1993. After you say that she “renounced violence.” Sure didn’t sound like it there, when she and Newman were defending the assassination of an abortion doctor as justifiable homicide.

    You’re busily trying to put a happy face on the radical AA’s tacit encouragement of (and actual performance of) domestic terrorism. You really shouldn’t be surprised that I’m not buying your bullshit, and that no one here is likely inclined to buy it either. Especially that bit about blaming the state of the law for the violence, rather than blaming the people who have openly encouraged violence and even actually been convicted and served time for plotting violence. Like Cheryl and Randall Sullenger. Or the people of their acquaintance who have been doing as they were encouraged, like Hill and Roeder.

    But I understand how much you love them and the violence they perpetrate, so I’ll just leave off feeding the troll there.

  116. pnyikos Says:

    Ah, now it comes out. Tully the Gullible has been monitoring the newsgroup talk.abortion and has swallowed hook, line, sinker, rod, and reel the monumental distortions and outright lies the pro-choice/pro-abortion/pro-abortionist fanatics in this intensely politicized newsgroup spew out at me whenever I am particcipating. [And if Tully has been monitoring me as carefully as he would have you think, he knows I draw huge distinctions between the three "pro" designations.]

    You doubt my word, readers? I’m giving Tully the benefit of the doubt in calling him the Gullible rather than the Slanderous. Be that as it may, I fully expect him to chicken out from the following challenge.

    Tully, I challenge you to document even ONE apologia by me for anti-abortion violence.

    As for dishonest representations and pettifogging evasions, the same challenge holds, but I won’t press this one as long as Tully provides some documentation for the claims he makes in the rest of the screed to which I am responding, along with the documentation I was challenging him for in the post to which his latest screed is a response.

    I reject with loathing Tully’s claim that I am a troll, and strongly suggest that he is the one who is trolling. I similarly reject his baseless claim that I am trying to put a happy face on the radical AA’s tacit encouragement of (and actual performance of) domestic terrorism.

    The same holds for his deliberate misdirection as to WHAT I was comparing to the role of FACE in my “IMHO” comment I am prepared to search for actual statistics of anti-clinic violence before widespread peaceful blockades came into being, after FACE, and in between, if Tully has the guts to claim that the in-between stats were as high or higher than either of the flanking stats.

    And one final challenge, also optional: just WHO brought suit against Terry for WHAT extracurricular activities? I didn’t want to repeat an undocumented claim that he was kicked out of OR because he was, at best, ambivalent about violent tactics, but if that claim was wrong, I’d like to hear from someone (preferably not the obviously biased Tully) about that.

  117. kranky kritter Says:

    Pnyikos. Tully has credibility in spades with me and many others here. You have none. Your rhetoric might have a shot if you were both strangers here, but probably not even then. We’re quite familiar with weasely argumentation here, so know that your constant changing of the subject every time Tully blows you out of the water is nothing but an embarassment to you.

    Aren’t you tired yet of getting clobbered by fact after fact after fact after fact? It;s just way too much for you to even TRY to spin. Just let it go and go away. You’re wasting your time here. Go find some gullible weak-minded folks to work your magic on. Because here you don’t even have a handful of beans.

  118. Tully Says:

    He’s a well-known AA-provocation troll on unmoderated ‘net forums such as google groups, KK. Not much point in responding farther unless you just enjoy watching him invent multitudes of new hoops that he will demand others jump through. Waste of time. Anyone really interested can google him up.

  119. pnyikos Says:

    I’ve also been on moderated net forums, including sci.bio.evolution.

    “kranky kritter,” you speak only for yourself (and Tully) and are hiding behind vague generalities. I challenge you to name one fact on which I got “clobbered” by the evasive Tully, who hasn’t provided clear-cut documentation for a single thing I’ve asked or challenged him about. He was bailed out by Agnostick on one thing, on which I made the purely factual statement that Tullly hadn’t documented it. He also insinuated that I was *contesting* the claim that Sullenger was in prison.

  120. pnyikos Says:

    I wonder whether Tully and “kranky kritter” really think that most people reading our back-and forth don’t notice that they aren’t substantiating a single negative claim they make about me.

    They must have a very low opinion of the readership, if they think that.

    “Well-known AA provocation troll” is, of course, an unsubstantiated claim and has not been supported by a single alleged case. And for good reason: I do NOT make a habit of running away from challenges, quite unlke Tully, who is doing the “Vietnam war option bit”: declare victory, then withdraw with a bunch of empty bravado like Not much point in responding farther unless you just enjoy watching him invent multitudes of new hoops that he will demand others jump through. Waste of time.

    Apparently, in the World According to Tully the Self-Righteous, challenging Tully to document what he says is “inventing multitudes of new hoops” for him to jump through.

    As for that parting shot about googling me up: good luck on wading through thousands of posts by and in response to me! In the unlikely even that Tully would single out one thread, we would have something concrete to discuss, and I don’t think he’d dare take that risk: already on this thread he much prefers ad hominem allegations to anything resembling either a fair trial or a responsible discussion.

    By the way, when I said “clear cut documentation” I excluded the posting of Federal Prisoner numbers, which were not directly verifiable, and which were superfluous once Agnostick had posted a reference which actually verified that Sullenger had been in federal prison, and which I had acknowledged before Tully posted those numbers.

  121. Stephen Says:

    I think Scott Roeder has its own belief and explanation why he do that. And accuse must not lead to really to death penalty, sentenced to sixteen months in state prison I think will do.

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