“Eternity is a very long time, especially near the end”

His new book is out on the 9th September http://stephenhawkingnewbook.com

The British deficit is lower than ours as percent of GDP. Canada has a surplus. This is largely due to the fact both spend less per capita on health care than we do.

The VA does better than private systems in every measure I have ever seen. They’re cheaper, faster, and have healthier patients. Every damn time. And, you know, combat veterans are not supposed to be easy to treat.

Please don’t talk about the private contractors the military hires. Those guys are so great that several American troops in Iraq have been electrocuted to death while taking a shower.

I’m a cat person, so we’ve found another thing to disagree on.

“you’re pissed at everyone” – nb

Well… I like dogs.

It’s 100% true that the current bills will not increase rationing, and will lead to neither a government takeover or more rationing.

As far as I can tell the only part of his statement that’s literally untrue is that “Reform will stop “rationing.” Even that is qualified by the quotes around “rationing,” which indicates he’s not talking about rationing per se, but rather talking about rationing as it’s being used in this particular debate.

Hyperbole is a little different than claiming a counselor of Grandma’s choice, helping her write a Living Will, is a Death Panel that will kill her because she’s not worth keeping alive. One guy is not a panel. Grandma doesn’t have to show up if she doesn’t feel like it, and if she doesn’t like what the counselor tells her she can ignore him.

Heck as hyperbole in US politics goes Axelrod’s a wanker. He did not mention Hitler or Communism. If you’re angry at a political operative for using that wussy level of hyperbole no wonder you’re an independent. Everyone does that, so you’re pissed at everyone.

“Rationing is done because it HAS to be done…always was, always will be… – Tom
“Rationing has become a 4-letter word, but rationing is, at its essence, umm, rational.” – KK
“you cannot “reform” health care without discussing “rationing.” The whole point of a comprehensive change that extends care to tens of millions of people is to alter the current patterns of rationing…” – Burke
“…rationing is going to happen (and is happening) would your prefer some government panel or a health care industry…” – trescml

OK – . So then I see this in an e-mail from David Axelrod, The same e-mail that I am sure everyone who contributes and comments on this site also found in their in-box yesterday.

“Reform will stop “rationing” – not increase it: It’s a myth that reform will mean a “government takeover” of health care or lead to “rationing.” – David Axelrod

So, tell me again – Who is lying about Heath Care Reform? Where are the lies and misinformation coming from?

Another piece may be price restrictions. If you don’t want to limit the amount of health care you provide, then your only other option is to limit the price that is paid for it.

Why should our health care industry be a profit-driven industry? What do we really gain from it? Would we get better care, better products, and better services if it were inherrently non-profit?

Agnostick
agnostick@excite.com

Yes, I’m conflating the two. They’re inexorably linked in the right-wing arguments. At least the ones I’ve read.

We’ve already got rationing via private industry that condemn people to death…but critics are saying that Obamacare will lead to rationing (via death panels), even when none of the plans have any mention of this. So they’re essentially arguing that government involvement will lead to something that already exists while ignoring that government involvement will allow more people access to the care they need because they’re getting rid of the pre-existing condition clause. To me that’s an intellectually bankrupt position.

However, I said we can have a discussion about cost controls because the Obamacare plan doesn’t institutionalize rationing the way the private industry does. To me, this is the moderate Republican criticism, and it’s a valid one.

Again, maybe I’m missing something, but I thought all that was pretty clear from the post.

Rationing is reality as clearly articulated by KK and Burke. Yes, health care is being rationed by insurance companies. That is why they are solvent and why they are easy targets for demonization by Obama. Heath Care is not currently being rationed in any meaningful way by Medicare. That is why it is so well liked, and why it is insolvent with a $40+ trillion unfunded liability. There are not enough rich people to pay for this, Obama and the administration are not being honest about the simple fact that “controlling costs” = rationing, because they know it is politically unpalatable. The people who will be impacted most (the elderly) are seeing through the transparently deceptive rhetoric and are having none of it.

I live in the UK. I was earning well under average wage, but only paid when I worked (I was part-time in one job, and self-employed for other work). I had to pay for my own treatment when I injured my back as I could not afford the time off work to wait for NHS care, yet I still had to pay tax for other people’s healthcare, even if they earned far more than I did.

To add insult to injury I paid VAT (sales tax) on that treatment, at 17.5%, and later when I was employed full-time with a company offering employee health insurance in order to avoid the same issues I had to pay tax on that ‘perk’. I was still not paid more than average wage.

The NHS is unfair, and some of the people who suffer most are the ones with low pay and the elderly.