Mexicans Do Not Threaten Our Culture
By Alan Stewart Carl | Related entries in ImmigrationAll across the country, pro-immigrant rallies continue and many are drawing unprecedented crowds. Clearly a lot of people are concerned that America is moving in the wrong direction on immigration. But is this a movement spurred solely by the desire to preserve a porous border while guaranteeing that America’s low-wage jobs and public assistance programs remain available to illegal immigrants? Or is this outpouring also a reaction to some of the xenophobic rhetoric that currently masquerades as “immigration reform?�
For many principled opponents of illegal-immigration, the concern centers around the fact that illegal immigrants drive down wages for working-class Americans and overly burden our public education and assistance programs. But not every one who wants to stop illegal immigration is all that concerned with the very real economic costs. Instead, they’re focused on what they see as cultural costs.
A great example is the highly publicized Minuteman Project which, in its description of itself, doesn’t mention jobs or public assistance at all. Instead, the Minutemen are focused on our culture. To them, the cost of unfettered illegal immigration is this:
Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious “melting pot.”
Even some critics who start their argument with economic rationales, have a tendency to end up discussing illegal immigrants as if they were an imperialist army threatening to divide America. Certainly there are assimilation problems with the illegal immigrant community. But the kind of rhetoric spouted by groups like the Minuteman Project borders on the xenophobic.
Assimilation into the American culture has never been a one-way street. Some native traditions are discarded when immigrant groups become Americans, but some traditions are adopted into the cultural fabric of America and define the cultures of our many regions. Whether it’s the Scandinavian influences in our northern plains, the Jewish influences on the East Coast, the Chinese influences in San Francisco, the Germans in Pennsylvania, the Cubans in Florida or the Irish and Africans in Tennessee, local culture is heavily laced with the traditions, cuisines and cultural identifiers of the immigrants who settled there.
As a resident of San Antonio, a city deeply defined by Mexican culture, I am dismayed anytime I read statements fearful of what Mexican influence will do to American cities. I love this city and I love its Mexican overtones. San Antonio is no less American because all the products on our shelves are in Spanish and English, because a slower pace is expected, because we’ll wrap just about anything in a tortilla.
San Antonians revere American freedoms and American democracy and American ideals just as much as people from any other city. And I suspect, given time, all these other cities where Mexicans are settling will find that, while their culture may shift, their Americaness will remain just as strong. Because, in the end, while immigrant cuisines and festivals and even some attitudes will take hold, the great freedoms of our American culture always win.
Immigration creates strife and, yes, there are those who refuse to assimilate. But if we are going to rationally and effectively solve the current over-saturation of immigrants, we must do so out of economic concerns. To claim that this involves cultural pollution is ignorantly divisive and will only complicate matters by angering all those who see nothing abhorrent in Mexican culture.
This entry was posted on Monday, April 10th, 2006 and is filed under Immigration. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:49 pm
From what I’ve seen on the right side of the blogosphere, they strike me as being more concerned with Mexican-style politics (whose center of gravity is well to the left of America’s, and whose historical reputation for corruption makes Jack Abramoff look like a paragon of virtue) insinuating itself into America than with Mexican culture, which did so a long time ago.
There’s also the Aztlán movement to consider. The Aztlanistas are looking to return all the Southwestern states, which were once Mexican territory, to Mexico. They may still be a fringe movement for now, but their presence still doesn’t exactly help solve the Mexican immigrants’ image problem among Americans.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Alan,
Two questions, if I may:
1) What do think of movements such as La Raza, Aztlan and MECha? There seems to be quite a sizable faction that most certainly do not want to assimilate (which does not mean abandoning one’s heritage) and who want a reconquista of lands acquired by the US in the treaty of Quadelopue Hidalgo.
2) Isn’t it possible that the fact that these are illegals we’re talking about has something to do with opposition to these protests? I know of no rational person who is against immigration in general or against Mexican or other Latin American immigrants in particular. Most of us are products of immigrant families one way or another. What they are against is the notion that people coming here illegally are going to be rewarded, while those who play by the rules don’t get special treatment. How is that xenophobic?
I travel quite a bit to the Southwest and have family there. You’re right, there are places where American and Mexican cultures weave together quite beautifully. Much of that cross-cultural dialogue comes through commerce, which is dependent on a set of laws. It would be interesting to post the Mexican immigration laws and compare how the two countries treat illegality.
April 10th, 2006 at 1:57 pm
Um, sorry for echoing Joshua’s comment. I was writing while he was posting, I guess.
April 10th, 2006 at 2:03 pm
No worries, Daniel. :)
April 10th, 2006 at 3:07 pm
ASC,
Well, ASC, even though you are from Texas ( :) ) I agree with you that the main issue to be solved here is economic in nature. I believe that the minutemen are a negligible factor to the opinion of the general population. I would also point out to those who are stuck on the principle of legal versus illegal means, that the main criteria for the illegal entrants is “proximity”. For those who point to the New York and New Jersey entries of the late 1800′s and early 1900′s it is an apples/oranges comparison. If those folks were on a border, there would have been a significant Italian/ Irish/ Scandinavian illegal immigration problem.
To your comment about the economic issue, do you believe that the Mexican worker has driven the average wage down? …. or do you believe that the American employers took advantage for a prolonged period of time (say the early 70′s to present) for the extra margin(which they now consider an entitlement) and pushed the willing American labor away from the fields (etc.)? I believe it is the latter. Our Pols are not attending to this issue, and the electorate is not educated (enough) to this issue. Those who are purporting the issue to be following the “Laws” should be pointing at the employers with the same level of insistance for compliance and redress.
In my profession I come across Mexican, Portuguese, Columbian and Korean workers (Construction Industry) and my interactions with all of them brings me to the following conclusion:
They are trying to make a living and improve their station in life, and are being maligned and taken advantage of in the same fashion as the
Italians
Irish
Jews
Chinese
Japanese
Etc.
Etc.
So, on one hand, they have my admiration … and on the other hand they have my attitude that they need to perservere and provide the opportunity for the next generation.
From a purely political viewpoint …. if they must pay fines and back taxes …. their employers should be assessed for the same thing. If you are in a free market and you take advantage of someone and they get caught under some US LAw, then you should pay for your complicity ….. after all, those employers were quiet for years while their profits were padded by the coyotes. Highly recommend a book by from the 1970′s by Joseph Wambaugh, “Lines and Shadows”, a true story that pointed at exactly what is going on now.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Just how “sizable” a “faction” do you believe these cultural nationalist organizations are, D-J? And how big are they really? More to the point, how influential are they really? The Michelle Malkin strategy of posting a bunch of pictures from a protest to her site and assuming they represent all the marchers is, uh, a little unconvincing, to say the least. I thought being conservative meant upholding intellectual standards.
April 10th, 2006 at 3:35 pm
To answer:
1) I think those movements would need to be handled differently than illegal immigtation in general … those groups are hardly representative of the people coming over looking for jobs. We shouldn’t confuse the two like we shouldn’t confuse Italian immigrants with the mafia (not a perfect example, but the point is there).
2) I wasn’t saying all opposition to illegal immigration is xenophobic–only that certain people and groups are expressing xenophobia in their opposition. They may not “be against immigrants” but they are definitely against too many immigrants, not because of economic hardships but because they see it as cultural pollution. My aim with this essay is to say that such voices are not helpful to the debate and their solutions are suspect because their motivations are less than savory.
In my mind, the real concern is economic and a real solution must be focused on curing the economic problems, not on simply ridding ourselves of illegal immigrants because their culture is mingling with ours.
April 10th, 2006 at 4:14 pm
What about those of us who just think they should go through the naturalization process like all the LEGAL immigrants had to? I’d never try and stop anyone who deserves to live in this country from coming.
I have friends who spent years trying to make it into this country legally, and Mexicans just hop the border. It’s not fair, it’s not right.
I seriously question the future of any human beings american citizenship when they begin that citizenship by breaking the law.
April 10th, 2006 at 6:24 pm
I hear, and I agree with the “legal – illegal immigration” division. That is not a problem of the US alone. Even NZ, stuck in its remote little corner of the SW Pacific, is not immune.
The problem here is not people walking across the border, but the numbers arriving and claiming refugee status.
What is refreshing to read is the acknowledgement that new immigrants add to the existing culture rather than destroy what is there.
So, for example, my home town in Howick now celebrates the Lunar New Year in addition to the calender; I had intended to go to the local temple to see the celebrations of Bhudda’s birthday this past weekend (I mean, I celebrate Christmas so why not?);my wife has learnt the true meaning of “Hai-ha” (very useful for that flubbed shot in tennis); I now have a reliable source of very good jerky (the horse is delicious); the list goes on…
April 10th, 2006 at 6:28 pm
“What they are against is the notion that people coming here illegally are going to be rewarded, while those who play by the rules don’t get special treatment.”
Exactly! As the husband of a LEGAL immigrant, this is exactly what I’m against. So are my wife and her family, all LEGAL immigrants.
“In my mind, the real concern is economic and a real solution must be focused on curing the economic problems, not on simply ridding ourselves of illegal immigrants because their culture is mingling with ours.”
What about punishing those who break our laws? Shouldn’t that be part of the solution? Or should we just reward them for breaking our laws while those who obey our laws are punished by having to wait to enter the country?
April 10th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
What about those of us who just think they should go through the naturalization process like all the LEGAL immigrants had to?
I think anyone–of any culture, natural origin, language etc.–should follow the rules and go through the process. It’s not about Mexicans, per se, for me, though I obviously have to acknowledge that due to Mexico’s proximity, our porous borders, and the sheer numbers of people involved, obviously the issue shows up most obviously with regard to that group.
I don’t think anyone should just get to, in effect, fast-track themselves by entering illegally and then just waiting until we lose our political will to deal with the issue in an orderly fashion. Like Jon, I think that starting off by flouting American law and then “demanding” rights is not a good way to establish a good-faith desire to become an American (which doesn’t mean giving up one’s heritage, traditions or customs, but should, to my way of thinking, require adjusting one’s loyalties in certain other areas).
That said, I think those who feel this way and have any real power to influence policy are completely outnumbered, so in that sense, this stance is an irrelevancy. The whole issue will be decided on other grounds.
April 10th, 2006 at 7:58 pm
Ryan, i’m also the husband of a legal immigrant. Why does everyone focus on the immigrants breaking the law, and nobody mentions the employers who are breaking the law by employing them?
If we enforce the law on that side, this problem goes away. I think Republicans regard it as “Regulation.” God forbid. In this case, it’s the solution.
April 10th, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Ryan,
Outside of JP I haven’t heard ONE person (particularly in our Congress) address the “Broken Laws” of the employers who enriched themselves by hiring these “Illegal Immigrants” for sub-standard wages and entice them here for there own greedy profit. When do we enforce that side of the problem? … or do we put the full financial burden on the immigrants … I’m of the mind that we should enforce ALL of the laws. How about you? …. That is the ROOT of the economic side of this issue.
April 10th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
1) What do think of movements such as La Raza, Aztlan and MECha? There seems to be quite a sizable faction that most certainly do not want to assimilate (which does not mean abandoning one’s heritage) and who want a reconquista of lands acquired by the US in the treaty of Quadelopue Hidalgo.
http://dfire.org/x2273.xml
April 10th, 2006 at 10:56 pm
Hello everybody, I want to make friend with you. Nice to meet you.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Ryan: I never said anything about letting illegal immigrants off with a free pass. My point is to distinguish good motivations for curtailing illegal immigration with bad motivations for curtailing illegal immigration. HOW that curtailing is carried out is a different matter. But I, for one, take the economically motivated illegal immigration opponents more seriously in their solutions than I take the culturally motivated opponents.
But I will say that the attitude of “they’re illegal, therefor they’re criminals” is rather short-sighted. Many good and decent people are willing to break a law or two in order to feed their family. That’s not to excuse them, only to say that harsher penalties for illegal immigrants is not going to stop the immigrants from coming. A more robust solution is needed.
April 10th, 2006 at 11:41 pm
GN you are completely right. The true problem and everyone knows it is on the demand side of the labor market and the dishonest way we regulate the supply of workers. We employ them, we subsidies their existence with a tolerance for substandard housing and employment regulation. We encourage them with relatively good social welfare programs with little question, many of whom don’t take a penny, even though they could. And in return, they work their butts off in the kitchen, on the lawn, on the roof, exc…working for minium wage which encourages economic growth. They then go home and take care of their many children, whom they don’t believe in aborting. Yes, these people are terrifying, keep them out. Lets send them all back to…East L.A.? If we declare war on undocumented workers, we really are a messed up country.
Mexico’s intellectual elite would have to be stupid not to feel someway regarding Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and Southern California. They did fight a war over it. Historically, I think Mexico has every right to look at southwestern United States as an amputated, but natural segment of their society — a rich and friendly cousin — that doesn’t make for good border sensitivity.
April 11th, 2006 at 1:28 am
Um, on the last comment on the Mexican War, do you really want to trust Malkin’s analysis of current beliefs of Mexican elites, DP? I see it as a conservative’s tacit acknowledgement the Mexican War was an overt land grab, with very little legitimacy, then or now. After all, the US’s (at least the Polk administration’s) goal all along was access to the Pacific, so they tacitly supported emigration to and the independence claims of Texas, and then positioned troops in a provocative fashion within territory Mexico claimed. Mexico did fight two wars, but both were defensive and they eventually accepted a token payment to get our troops out of Mexico City. So I can see your point that there may be some kind of understandable and probably justified emotional connection with the US SW among a good number of Mexicans, but a literal conspiracy to take it back through an undeclared invasion? Please!
If Florida ever goes Democrat, you’ll see Malkin calling for us to retake it from the bad Cubans who stopped voting Republican (remember the Maine, baby!). Then she’ll call for us to re-declare war on Spain for getting us good English-speaking folk in this mess in the first place. I wouldn’t put it past her!
April 11th, 2006 at 6:27 am
Constructivist:
I did not mention anything about percentages. Also, how are you so convinced that I am conservative? Is that to be an insult?
Alan:
I think a major contention is just how representative these movements are (and for those who don’t trust Malkin (I don’t) try reading Victor Davis Hanson on the subject).
If you want to have an answer for the cultural paranoid, you might do better to explain the signs that read something akin to “Europeans Go Home.” The people most concerned about cultural mix ask why it seems that only the cultural prerogatives of whatever demographic is sympathetic at the time is considered legitimate. Calling people racists or whatever epithet is in vogue hardly makes your point for you.
I am for liberal legal immigration that protects those coming to America and ensures security and equity (as well as can be).
As for economics, I would be careful with that argument. Many business are lobbying against any reform because they rely on paying illegals substandard wages.
One last thing for Mr. Birmingham. Quoting Dragon Fire is unlikely to persuade those who have read the words of these movements thenselves. To lump anyone who has questions about these groups together as racists displays a childish and reactionary mind. Let’s just call anyone who might disagree a racist. End of argument. How typical.
April 11th, 2006 at 8:03 am
To lump anyone who has questions about these groups together as racists displays a childish and reactionary mind. Let’s just call anyone who might disagree a racist. End of argument. How typical.
Boo frickin’ hoo. Rather than crying about people suggesting that your train of thought is racist, how about proving your point? If there are signs “something akin” to “Eurpoean Go Home,” you should have seen pictures you could point us to, no?
The whole Mecha/Aztlan/La Raza/Reconquista thing was pretty heavily thrashed out in the California recall, and many people who weren’t trying to use it to trash Bustamante pointed out that a lot of the “scary” rhetoric was not scary if you could actually understand idiomatic Spanish, and were interested in being honest about what was said.
April 11th, 2006 at 8:25 am
As I just posted on another blog, I think the topic of setting stiff penalties on employers of illegal immigrants and enforcing them with no exceptions isn’t getting as much discussion because the large majority of us agree that this should be done. If we agree it should be done, what is there to debate?
As for the idea that breaking immigration law doesn’t make them criminals, what does it make them, then? Not law abiding citizens because they are neither citizens nor abiding by our laws. They broke the law, they should expect to be punished.
In order to truly solve this problem, we need to handle both the supply side and the demand side. Go after anyone who employs illegal immigrants very aggressively and, at the same time, don’t give illegal immigrants the right to jump in line in front of those who have been trying to get here legally.
April 11th, 2006 at 8:31 am
Here ya go:
http://www.mexica-movement.org/granmarcha.htm
enjoy.
Be sure to check out the sign that says, “This is our continent, not yours.” Or how about “All Europeans are illegal?”
That search took about, oh, thirty seconds.
And I will point out the signs are not in idiomatic Spanish, although I have to wonder why you think it’s necessary for anyone to be required to learn idiomatic Spanish.
If you had read my first comment without the blinders, you would not have jumped to the conclusions that you did. Instead, you betray your own prejudices. Good for you.
April 11th, 2006 at 8:38 am
Oh, yeah, these guys are reeeeeal scary:
http://www.mexica-movement.org/ENTERHERETEXTONLY.htm
” YES TO TOTAL LIBERATION FROM EUROPEANS!
NO TO RACISM AGAINST EUROPEANS!
YES To Telling of ALL of the Crimes of the Europeans!
YES To Demanding Truth & Justice For Our People!
YES To Supporting The Constitution of the United States!
This is the instrument that will protect our people
and the Europeans who are on our continent!
WE WANT THE PROBLEM OF COLONIALISM
SOLVED WITH A DEMOCRATIC, CONSTITUTIONAL,
AND NON-VIOLENT SOLUTION!
TRUTH AND JUSTICE WILL WIN IN THE END!
Knowledge, Courage, Patience,
and Non-Violent Actions are our best path to Liberation.
YES to NON-VIOLENCE as a solution to colonialism!
We don’t want to do to the Europeans what they did to us!
We don’t want to behave in the savage manner of Europeans!
YES to the solution of Education for our people and for Europeans on our true history and their history on our continent”
April 11th, 2006 at 9:00 am
Are you impaired in some way? My original point was that in order to answer the “cultural paranoid” (should have been culturally) it would be helpful to explain these sentiments, which bear a resemblance to the kinds of slogans that fragmented the antiwar marches.
You ask for proof and then you ignore it. You obviously don’t understand discussion.
As to the crimes of the Europeans, no one here, including me, has excused European faults. It is interesting, though, that the popular myth that indigenous peoples were docile and devoid of all aggression is still hanging around. Plus, the whole concept of what indigenous means is open to interpretation (NB: look up Kennewick Man for some questions about original peoples).
I wrote previously that I favor a liberal immigration policy, although I believe that there are valid concerns. If you can’t understand this “centrist” point of view, big deal.
April 11th, 2006 at 9:44 am
Are you impaired in some way? My original point was that in order to answer the “cultural paranoid� (should have been culturally) it would be helpful to explain these sentiments, which bear a resemblance to the kinds of slogans that fragmented the antiwar marches.
You ask for proof and then you ignore it. You obviously don’t understand discussion.
I’m not at all impaired, I just profoundly disagree with the notion that we should coddle the “culturally paranoid.” Mockery is a better tack. They’ve slowed the rest of us down plenty already, and the sooner their qualms are seen as stupid, the better.
Anyway, you’ve proven that some people carry signs saying, essentially, “our ancestors were here before yours, and your ancestors stole their land.” This is in response to being told that their presence here in the US is not tolerable. I don’t usually go for “the other guys started it” types of arguments, but hey, the other guys started it.
I’m glad you favor a liberal immigration policy, but you should realize that these concerns you cite are primarily associated with groups who want, essentially, no immigration from anywhere but Europe, and consider how deeply you want to swallow that hook.
April 11th, 2006 at 10:17 am
Daniel wrote:
“As for economics, I would be careful with that argument. Many business are lobbying against any reform because they rely on paying illegals substandard wages. ”
Ummm . . . be careful? Why? I’m sorry if businesses are worried they will lose some of their 300% profit if they have to actually pay people at least minimum wage. The attitude that we should be careful is ridiculous. The businesses are the ones who should be careful because they are breaking the law. There should be absolutely NO consideration for that, period. That issue needs to be dealth with as a priority if this government expects anything to be solved with our immigration problems.
Ryan,
See above. People are talking about this, and it seems like everyone agrees, but clearly they do not, or else there would be no ifs, ands or buts about enforcing these laws. It would have been done yesterday. I find it extremely offensive that our government would seek out and punish the immigrants without seriously cracking down on employers. In this country it is time to stop allowing big business to have so much power.
April 11th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Hey im hispanic (from ecuadorian parents) and i know mexican people, and i get people to tell me what they really think because im hispanic. The cold hard truth is that MANY/MOST Meixcans believe cali, texas, arizona, and new mex are part of mexico. There is also a saying among the meixan elite (not as overt) that “the land of mexico goes beyond its borders” (vincente fox has said this himself i believe).
I can guarantee you that if we dont stop this problem now and we can (we put a man on the moon!) that there will be a civil war in the United States within the next 40 years. that would destroy the economy and make us a third world nation—-effecting us ALL! fortunately there are hispanics like myself that care about this country first.
any questions–just email me at [email protected]
April 11th, 2006 at 10:41 am
So now we get to the nub. And we are just talking past each other, so I’ll stop after this. I cite radicals on one side and you can cite radicals on the other and that becomes the focus.
What I’m trying to point out here is that you dismiss those radicals that I cite while giving undo credence to those radicals whom you feel want no immigration excepting Europe. Who are these groups? And why would you assume that that is my opinion? I have never advocated immigration from Europe only, and would consider that idea to be fringe at best. You seem to think that this is mainstream opinion. The parallel is quite amusing.
And again, just for the sake of perspective, wars have been fought over real estate for millennia. It did not start with the Europeans. They may have been brutal by today’s standards, but the history of warring peoples is rife with tales of atrocities. One might want to inquire as to the brutality of human beings in general. So in asking who “started it” the answer has to be qualified as to timeframe.
If you look here:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02169b.htm
you’ll find a cursory discussion of ancient Mexica peoples.
Battle for territory and conquest are as old as the land and the people on it. To arbitrarily pick a point in time and deny everything before that is disingenuous.
April 11th, 2006 at 10:45 am
Meredith:
It’s not an either/or thing. Yes, businesses should be held accountable, also (and I would really lke to know where that 300% profit figure comes from). Are you saying that this is all the fault of business? Really?
Luis:
Thanks. Your post does provide some perspective. You European bigot, you.
April 11th, 2006 at 10:56 am
Meredith,
I do believe that we need to stand up to Congress and law enforcement and demand that they enforce laws against employers. Unfortunately, there isn’t enough volume directed toward Congress about this. However, if the question is why isn’t punishment of employers of illegals being debated on sites like this, the answer is because nearly everyone agrees. Debates are kind of short and boring when there aren’t dissenting opinions. That’s why we aren’t seeing debate of that topic on sites like this and instead seeing debate on the topic of what to do with the illegal immigrants. This is a much more complex issue, one I can definitely see good points being raised by all sides in but also one in which I stand firmly in saying that we should never reward people for breaking our laws by allowing them to stay in our country while punishing others for following our laws by continuing to make them wait to enter the country. I have yet to see any explanation of why such a standard is the right thing to do or why the programs being offered are anything but this.
April 11th, 2006 at 11:31 am
So in asking who “started it� the answer has to be qualified as to timeframe.
Here, I’m just referring to the rhetorical temperature of the debate. Tell people they don’t belong in a place and they are likely to point out, when it is true, that their ancestors were here before yours.
Who are these groups?
VDARE. American Patrol. The Minutemen.
And why would you assume that that is my opinion? I have never advocated immigration from Europe only, and would consider that idea to be fringe at best.
I never assumed that, nor did I say it was. I just said that you should be careful borrowing rhetoric from people who *do* think that. People might get the wrong idea.
April 11th, 2006 at 11:50 am
Oh, come on. No one is trying to conquer the Southwest. There is a VAST difference between Mexicans intellectually considering the American Southwest as part of their traditional lands and them actually trying to reconquer it (and I really doubt all that many Mexicans even intellectually consider the Southwest as their land).
Do you really think that all the Mexican Americans are just suddenly going to wake up one day and decide, what the hell, I’ll throw my good life in America away and start a civil war against the world’s strongest army in the hope that we can reclaim land lost 150+ years ago? The notion is absurd.
The spectre of the “race war” is just a fear tactic that was also used by those who wanted to deny black civil rights.
And, by the way, it IS legitimate to point out when people are being xenophobic and/or racist. Paranoia is never a good starting point when developing public policy. We have to be level-headed about this if we want a lasting solution. And, yes, despite the attempts by more than few commentators to cast me as some open-borders advocate, I do favor cracking down on illegal immigrants. But I want it done properly and without the kind of rabid fear-mongering some are engaging in.
April 11th, 2006 at 1:36 pm
Daniel,
I made up the 300% for exaggerative effect. I’m pretty sure, however, that a lot of big businesses can well afford to pay workers minimum wage and still make a lot of money. They’ll just have to take home 1 million instead of 2 million (again, before you get your panties in a bunch, I made that up as an example).
Yes, I do pretty much lay the blame on businesses. This is because they know better. These are educated people with support systems and worldly knowledge who are making a conscious decision to exploit underprivileged and desperate people with little to no education to make more money. This has been going on for hundreds of years, and it’s really intellecutally dishonest to act like the solution to the problem is to send everyone back where they came from and put up a big wall to keep them out. Just because people break the law when they come over here does not make them immoral or bad people. I am much more willing to forgive that example of breaking the law than I am to forgive businesses who are taking advantage of the situation.
April 11th, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Meredith,
I fully agree with you that we have to deal with the businesses. Get rid of the demand for cheap labor and you get rid of a lot of the supply. However, that’s only half of the supply/demand equation. As long as we don’t deal with the supply side, some businesses will be tempted to try to evade the law and will create a demand for those workers. In this way, illegal immigration is kind of like the drug problem. You can’t simply go after the dealers because a few dealers will slip through the cracks and continue to supply the drugs to the users. You can’t simply go after the users because, as long as the dealers are there, there will always be more users. The best solution is to go after both.
I also agree with you that the crime of coming here illegally to get work in order to feed one’s family is much more morally justifiable than the crime of illegally hiring illegal immigrants simply to pad your company’s profits. However, both are crimes, neither is fully morally justifiable, and both should be punished. Personally, I think the employers should face much more harsh penalties than the illegal immigrants but I do think both the business owners and the illegal immigrants should be punished and letting the illegal immigrants stay here while those who are following our immigration laws are left waiting to get here through the proper channels is rewarding the illegal immigrants, not punishing them. I don’t know what the right solution is but I can see that what has been offered so far isn’t it.
April 11th, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Ryan,
I’m guessing that by “what has been offered so far” you are talking about the proposals by the Senate and the House and not the suggestions on this blog. What I have heard from people on all sides of this debate is that no bill is better than a bad bill. I think I agree with that. How about you?
April 11th, 2006 at 8:49 pm
Meredith,
I’m addressing everything I have seen. I haven’t seen a comprehensive solution that I believe would cover the three key issues here:
1) Probably most importantly, make it easier to enter the country legally.
2) Nearly as important, severe punishment for any employer who knowingly hires illegal immigrants (I could see offering some leniency if they honestly didn’t know).
3) A way to handle those who are currently here illegally in a fair way. By fair, I mean not too burdensome to them but more importantly not in a way that treats them better than those who are trying to get here legally. I’m not sure what this solution is but I think it would include allowing those who are trying to enter legally into the country much more quickly than through the current process and deporting at least some of those who are here illegally as well as fines at least as stiff as what I have seen mentioned so far.
April 12th, 2006 at 10:42 am
Thanks for your reply. I do agree with you about the fairness issues between those who are trying to come here legally versus those who are coming illegally. I have a good friend who’s boyfriend is from another country. He was a student here, and he now works here, all legally, but his visa is due to expire soon. I think he’s been here for several years (not sure how many), and he is still trying to become a citizen. From what my friend and he have told me, he is trying to win some lottery system, which costs money to enter into. I’m not familiar at all with the details. It is VERY unfair though, because he contributes a lot to the community, and he really wants to stay here and spend his life with my friend. (They can’t get married because they are both men).
April 13th, 2006 at 10:26 am
Hello
Again, I am HISPANIC, and I am telling u as an insider what these people think. Most hispanics will obviously not give you this information. Their (mexican-hispanics) hope seems to be that when they make up a majority in cali-tex-NM-AZ that they can hold a referendum on independence or at least achieve de-facto independence by controlling all important positions in the state. Anyone who laughs this off is a fool. If you want to see some websites where they openly discuss this sort of thing check out http://www.aztlan.net. aztlan is their name for the south-west us.
If I was in charge of the border the problem would be solved quickly and easily. There would be a high tech fence and just station the army bases along the border instead of where they are now. we put a man on the moon—-we can secure out border….
I know african-americans that feel just as strongly as any white person about securing the border. Its not a race issue. its an intelligence issue. anyone with a little economic sense should be able to see the economic disaster that will take place. I personally challenge any “sympathetic” hypocrite who wants weak border control to go around their neighborhood and help as many homeless people as they can into their own house—then talk and we can turn the US into the worlds homeless shelter and become a 3rd world nation economically. (-8
April 30th, 2006 at 4:43 am
Okay, I am noticing many comments here – mostly about semanitcs. Splitting hairs has always been a favored pastime for some, so I will leave that to those who have more time than I…
What I simply question is this – If this ‘ideology’ of ‘Aztlan’ is simply a notion (and nothing to be discussed), then perhaps you could explain the comments posted the site of:
http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/Indigenous%20Nations.htm
For those who have not the time, effort, or simply wish to continue the ‘Semantics’ Grandstanding, I will save you at least some of the effort and post a few of the comments below…
“For too long has our history and struggle been concealed, it is time to “get up and stand up”"
Question – Why would an organization wish to ‘conceal’ itself? Hmm… Well, I suppose that should merely remain a point for now. Let’s move on, shall we…
“Aware of our history and as a serious and disciplined movement, we must unite our people, to rid ourselves from the manipulation of the “Two Party Dictatorship” (democrats, republicans) who are simply the agents of US Global Capitalist Imperialism ”
HMMM…Now THAT is an interesting point. Perhaps THAT is one reason why they wished to conceal their identity. But let’s continue…
“We uphold that, Mexico, Central / South America and Aztlan are, “The Bronze Continent”, La Patria Grande, and state once and for all that, we, ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS!”
Now would anyone with an IQ above 72 please like to explain what exactly THAT is supposed to mean…?!
Let us define exactly WHERE ‘Aztlan’ is. Well, good luck – because even they don’t know EXACTLY where it is…
But on the page of
http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/AztlanMap.htm
you will find the link leading you to
http://www.tonatierra.org/aztlan.html
Here, you will find a map. This map details the general region (Aztlan), that is being claimed.
But if you are simply one of those types of individuals that says “You can’t tell ANYTHING FROM THAT MAP. For all we know, that could be a map of Ohio.” Well, okay – let me see if I can help you out a little more…
According to http://www.mayorno.com/WhoIsMecha.html (where Ironically, they seem to believe the same as Phillip J. Birmingham & Alan Stewart Carl), ‘Aztlan’ comprises of ‘eight or nine states including Colorado, California, Arizona, Texas, Utah, New Mexico, Oregon and parts of Washington’.
There – are you happy now?
Back to the Comments. I will switch gears and now go to
http://www.nationalchicanosummit.org/NationalIdentity.htm
for a moment. This page shares some insite into the beliefs as a group and their structure as a society. It also shares their ‘History’. One particular quote that I would like to examine is the following…
“Indigenous people of the Americas have been in a constant struggle to de-colonize. The Chicano Movement is no different. It’s struggle is for De-colonization of Indigenous “America”. ”
De-colonize? De-COLONIZE?! What in the world is THIS? DE-COLONIZE “AMERICA”?
“After a long process of analysis we have realized that our movement is not only for liberation and self-determination, but is part of the Movement for De-colonization, and the unity of Pan-Americanism”
Again – there’s that word: De-coloniz(ation)…
“Our movement is divided into three levels:
1.Creating our power
At this level the purpose is to raise the consciousness of our people and fortify our organizations through the unity of our people movement.
2.Laying out our plan
Lay out the blueprint
3.Putting our plan into action
Take the power ”
Putting our plan into action? Take the Power? What COULD that possibly mean? Really?
For additional points of reference, I suggest that you go to:
http://www.aztlan.net/
Yet, the two sites pretty much say the same thing (Just in different formats)
Okay – I have had enough fun posting all of this onto this message. If you want to read more, then you should simply go to the sites and read it for yourselves. (Unless of course, you already KNOW everything. In which case, you shouldn’t be arguing…)
There is One Final point I would like to add. Many will look at these comments and say “Oh – this evil racist created these statements from his imagination. They’re not real…”
There will be those who say “Oh – the sites that are being listed are nothing more than put-ons by Anti-Mexican groups. Those comments are fake.”
First – (and I will even testify in a Court of Law on this fact…) I DID NOT MAKE THEM UP. Click on the links and see for yourself.
Second – If you are having a hard time accepting these facts, then I suggest that you contact the Site Administrators for the above sites and see what they have to say….
Who knows? Maybe they are lying. Maybe they’re nothing more than a couple of Teenagers Playing a Very Practicle Joke. Perhaps they are simply American individuals with a very sick, twisted sense of humor. Maybe it’s all just one big joke put on by some Latinos wanting to poke fun at us….Perhaps. God – I hope so…