To Answer William Kristol’s Call To Arms For Georgia…
By Justin Gardner | Related entries in Russia, The World, WarWhen the “civilized world†expostulated with Russia about Georgia in 1924, the Soviet regime was still weak. In Germany, Hitler was in jail. Only 16 years later, Britain stood virtually alone against a Nazi-Soviet axis. Is it not true today, as it was in the 1920s and ’30s, that delay and irresolution on the part of the democracies simply invite future threats and graver dangers?
This is the classic Neo-Con game. Frighten us with spectres of the past that have little to do with the realities of today, and then offer no answers save the silent one, “Attack!”
Listen folks, Russia has grossly overreached by bombing the hell out of Georgia, but our hands are tied because Georgia struck first. We warned them repeatedly not to do anything because there’s no way we could make the case after they took action. And yet they did.
Add to that the facts that South Ossetia has been a de facto independent state since the early 90s and it’s obvious they want to rejoin Russia, and you have a situation where Georgia’s actions are even less credible.
If Georgia had simply given up South Ossetia and allowed them to become a sovereign nation, they could claim the moral high ground here. But just because they like us and just because they sent a bunch of troops into Iraq does not justify their actions.
So to answer Kristol’s question…I think a way to make the world a lot more dangerous a lot quicker is by fighting somebody’s fight for them when they hit first. Because it would result in a complete reversal of any progress we’ve made on numerous issues, not the least of which is nuclear non-proliferation. The only way we can achieve a true, worldwide nuclear weapon shutdown is if Russia and China are allies, not enemies. We’ve worked for decades on these relationships, and while they both have massive problems when it comes to democracy, starting Cold War 2 would be disastrous.
Simply put, we can’t risk our long term goals on a hot head, democratic startup, regardless of whether or not the bully they kicked in the shins has now smashed their nose in. Why Neo-Cons don’t get this is beyond me, but maybe they’re revealing themselves to be the one-trick policy pony many us suspected they were all along.
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August 11th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
And if only we had been successful at getting Georgia into NATO!!!!! WOW!!!! No Doublbe WOW!!!! And of the other Eastern Block nations that did get into NATO. Sounds like the pre war alliances that got the world into two world wars. NeoCon nation must not be taking their meds recently. Especially Ms Crystal. I know I got it wrong, but don’t you think The War Monger got it wrong on so many issues? Maybe Taiwan into NATO or ???? pick the hot spot and these NEONUTS will pull out the SCARE rattle for us to dance to.
ENOUGH. I do know that McBush is a NEONUT and Obama is not.
ENOUGH of war, it only eliminates peace, tranquillity and life.
ON WITH LIFE.
August 11th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Ha, ha, ha. This why I come to the Grand ole’ Donk – for lines like this. Accessing the “moral high ground” or the topography of geo-political morality in this region must be a difficult thing – but I’m sure your up to the spiritual task with your laser-sighted M-60 moral clarity gun.
It is nice to know that you’ve come around to my rather sincere appreciation for the Iron Claw of Russian authoritarism and Putin, specifically.
Now everybody say, “Ve vill crush dem like bugs!”
August 11th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
So back in the mid 1800s we should have just let the Confederacy secede, because they wanted to..
and if California decided it wants to be its own country in the next few days, we should take the “moral high ground” and let them do so??
and if Mexico decides it wants Texas back, so it starts giving away passports to everyone that would care to take one… and then have elements within Texas keep attacking its neighboring states… when we go in to restore order, Mexico should just come up in an effort to defend its citizens against an American genocide and invade us? (okay maybe I’m getting carried away with the exact example)
………
August 11th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
I don’t know enough about the historical grievances and connections the South Ossetians have with Georgia (it’s a matter I plan to research as soon as time allows), so I really don’t know if Georgia has a long, historical claim to the land or whether the South Ossetians have a reasonable claim to independence. But I would hesitate to argue that Georgia should have just allowed the region to secede.
However, I do think Justin is right in saying the neo-cons are poorly suited for this crisis. This is going to take some cold-blooded realism — something neither party has proven adept at in recent years. We have to find that line that doesn’t allow Russia to “get away with it” while also not hightening global tensions to a dangerous level. I don’t have the answer at all. But people like Kristol aren’t helping by pretending the issue is an obvious matter of black-and-white and anyone who thinks differently is leading us down the path to WWIII.
Again, I admit that my knowledge of this region of the world is not great and perhaps, after some self-education, I’ll see the matter differently. But, right now, it seems very clouded in grays and lots of bad options for America.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Hm, my problem with your argument is that this situation is pretty similar to the first Iraq War. We jumped into defend Kuwait when they were attacked by Iraq. Russia is swooping in to defend S. Ossetia in a not dissimilar fashion.
So, in a sense, we’ve pre-justified any military involvement in Georgia thanks to an event 15 years ago.
Georgia, an almost-kinda candidate for NATO, is attacked by Russia. Like our “friend” Kuwait, shouldn’t we be in there like white on rice?
As for reversing all of that progress, since when does the Bush Administration (or any administration) worry about a little thing like “regression”? Since our spy plane crashed in China back in 2001, it’s been the Regan Yearsâ„¢ all over again. Your ‘blasted Vulcan logic’ won’t work on Captain Bush and the Starship Free Enterprise. If there’s money to be made off of something, we’ll bomb it or let Mother Nature trash it. Since there’s very little oil and/or natural gas in Georgia (that hasn’t already been spoken for, anyway) I doubt Bush and Co. will care to go in. They’ll just shake their finger at Russia and say: “No! Bad Russia! Bad! No invading! No!”
Forget that you’re right. Forget also that the USMil is over-extended. Forget that our economy is in the crapper–all that matters is whether business interests want anything from the region.
Sorry to blather on and to be so cynical about it. I hope I was able to make sense there.
August 11th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
For more than a decade and a half, South Ossetia has acted as an independent state, having voted twice to secede from Georgia. What’s more, Georgia has allowed this to go on and had recently proposed that South Ossetia could essentially act as an independent state, just so long as they agreed to still technically be a part of Georgia. This was rejected by the Ossetians because who would want the appearance of autonomy if it isn’t real?
So yes, Georgia can’t claim the moral high ground on this since they A) attacked a region they have treated as an independent state for nearly two decades and B) haven’t allowed the Ossetians to make official what they themselves essentially proposed, just in a different “Option B” format.
Somebody like Kristol, though, suggests much more direct action because of nebulous “what ifs” and all I’m saying is that the waters are muddy. I don’t think stating that much means I’m taking some big relativistic leap or that I appreciate Russia’s tactics either.
August 11th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
My point exactly and we are in agreement on Kristol’s goofiness here.
August 11th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
Georgian claims that sepratists fired first on Georgian troops, and they merely responded to the threat, but this tit-fot-tat mortar and sniper crap has been going on for years. Considering that Ossetia is still recognized as Georgian territory, perhaps they have the right of way there.
However, the more I read into the events of last weekend, it appears the Georgean military decided to push it all the way and try to crush the sepratist movement altogether. Apparently, they destroyed all the sepratist infrastructure in Tskhinvali.
I guess it all comes down to whether you think the sepratist movement is legit or not. Demographically, when Georgia declared independance in ‘91 there were a lot more Georgians in Ossetia than there are now, and Russia has been directing nationalist propaganda and supporting militants in Ossetia and Abkhazia probably to keep the region in a state of flux so that it does not get a NATO invitation.
That being said, what was Saakasvili thinking? Its like Salman Rushdie going to India on a book tour. Even if you are morally justified, you just knew you were going to get F#$ked.
Russia is clearly going beyond “peacekeeping”, and in no way does Georgia’s actions warrant a regime change. They were waiting for something like this to happen, perhaps deliberately provoking it.
August 11th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Yes, from what I’ve read J Dhimmi brought up the missing part in the previous comments, that being Russia’s role in all of this. Does anyone believe they care that much about a few thousand independent minded citizens? Or is it that they care a lot about a Democratic pro-West Georgian state so close to Mother Russia and the other Nato alliances growing up all around them.
So what to do? The Bush admin has had such good relations with Putin. They were such buddies, how could this have happened to tarnish that strong friendship? Bush has come out with a strong statement against Russia’s actions, but what was missing was the ‘or else …’ in his official reaction. I guess this is what Kristol was trying to add. What about the business relationships that have developed the last few years with Russia. Why can’t our Gov threaten to put pressure on some of these investment opportunities they’ve been so favorable towards in the past?
August 13th, 2008 at 5:42 am
What specific actions can ORDINARY US citizens take to dismantle Russia’s aggression against Georgia?
StopRussianAggression.com
Name the country that intentionally targets civilian populations AND UN peace keepers as an integral hallmark of its war planning strategy. THESE ARE WAR CRIMES.
Who wrote Georgia’s plan for aggression? Who advised? Who sold them their weapons systems?
August 19th, 2008 at 10:23 am
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