Here’s a clue – One document is about freeing a people from a perceived oppressive government. The other establishes a code of law under which the new nation is formed.

You might want to be able to tell them apart. It’s kind of important.

With all due respect, you wrote a post today about the BCS playoff system. Now, I liked the post, and I even agreed with it, but shouldn’t you be worrying about more important things too?

So then, allow me to be a little worried that Americans are cool with forcing kids to pledge obedience to a country and a deity every single day they go to school when we’re supposed to live in a society where personal freedoms are respected and church and state are divided, okay?

One last note…isn’t in interesting that this post generated the most comments we’ve had in weeks? And this for a topic that nobody should be worrying about. Hmm….

Quick question regarding the following somewhat well known line:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

Who do you think he was referencing when he said “Creator”? Don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly opposed to forcing kids to say the pledge, but would like some historical accuracy

@ JG: I agree it’s probably a pointless exercise. I disagree that it’s at all harmful. A lot of people seem to be making the pledge a symbol for other things in the culture with which they disagree. The problem is, the pledge simply doesn’t rise to a level worthy of contempt. Or even consternation. It’s better to worry about the big things.

An Atheist omits the word God from the pledge, but claims that this is OK because the original version is still good to use. To the Principals office or not?

A polytheist believes there are many Gods and so uses the plural version of the word. Principals office or not?

A Muslim believes that the only true word for God is Allah so he uses the “true” word. Violation or not?

They shouldn’t be on either. The reason those words were put in both places, at the same time, was to show how the country rejected the “godless communists”. To have these phrases in our pledge and on our currency now reminds us that this country/government is against athiesm, which it should not be.

those who feel the ‘pledge’ is somehow necessary or important are the same idiots who believe in invisible gasbags in the sky, and who persist in throwing their money away on landlines (since these are the only phones called during ‘telephone polling’). see you in the next dimension, bronze-age-myth-believing-f*cktards!

Justin, I agree with you. I am not against the pledge of allegiance or for that matter prayer in school. What am am against is those that want to politicize these matters for some sort of gain or recognition within their own constituencies.

The pledge of allegiance along with prayer are intensely personal things. That a person wishes to share these things with others is not is not wrong, but that a group of people wish to impose onto others their beliefs.

Time warp back to the 1988 presidential election between George H.W. Bush and Michael Dukakis. This is a perfect example of taking intensely personal issues and politicizing them for personal gain. Remember that George H.W. Bush was running extremely low in the polls for president when his political hack Harvey “Lee” Atwater ran T.V. ads excusing Michael Dukakis of being “anti-American” because Dukakis when asked whether he supported making the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory said no, he would not support making it mandatory.

And Dukakis had good reason to believe that that in fact was the most American thing to do. He had along with everyone else witnessed the Supreme courts earlier decision stating that it was unconstitutional to make the Pledge of Allegiance mandatory. So the idea that Dukakis was “unpatriotic” because of this belief is total nonsense. But it nevertheless worked very well for George Bush Senior in his bid for the White House.

It just goes to show you how uneducated, insular and uninformed the American populace really is and for the most part has always been. Americans as a whole suffer from historical amnesia. Where as the rest of the world tends to look at things with longer memeory Americans tend to think in terms of years if not months. It quite easy to come out with a politicized issue and sway Americans just on that rather than actually having constructive dialogue, where the most informed person is likely to be the the winner.

American politics are more like boxing. Where the most cunning a ruthless is the last on standing. The question is– is that the kind of qualities we want to be foremost in the person with whom the world rests? Unfortunately, the all to obvious answer is yes. We want fluff over substance. Thus you have the last 8 years under a war mongering president.

Prayer in schools? Sure, who’s stopping you? Prayer in schools for everyone despite their religious beliefs? Uh, is this a theocracy or the United states of America?

I have never been religious but I have no problem saying the pledge as it stands. I recited the pledge every school day from when I was 4 until I was 18 and I have NEVER been offended by it.

People like you are just so sensitive about the stupidest things. What makes you act like this? Are you just thatinsecure with your life? Is it because you have to protest something as ridiculous as this so that if the pledge gets changed, you can say to your children, “I did that”?

Seriously people — this ‘politically correct’ bullshit is getting way too out of hand.

Oh, and Merry Christmas! (Yeah, I said it)

@Alan,

There’s an objective reason and benefit for teaching kids how to spell or do math homework or learn physical fitness. But there’s no demonstrable benefit to have kids recite a pledge to a flag, especially since I think we’d all acknowledge that kids simply ignore it. It’s not like this is a good way to either a) show you’re patriotic or b) learn patriotism. And to that last point…especially since that term seems to be too often co-opted by those who would have us not question our government. Liberty and justice is not defined by allegiance to a flag or any sort of pledge, and it certainly isn’t defined by acknowledging the existence of a “God.”

Also, the words “under God” are not innocuous, especially since the Founders took such great care to leave the word “God” out of the founding documents, and instead opted to say “Creator.” But this post is less about my problem with the pledge and more about the idea that people think kids should be forced to say it. That just somehow seems unAmerican to me. But that’s just me and, oh, the other people in this comment thread who I’m assuming are all either a) metrosexual, b) wear Abercrombie or c) only trying to be rebellious and/or smart.

@J.Harden

More insults? And you of all people are accusing me of trying to impress people with how rebellious and smart I am?

Good times.

You don’t believe in Buddha, right? Or Shiva or Osiris or Thor? The pantheon of Hinduism is just a load of nonsense, right?

Well guess what? I just believe in one fewer gods than you do. That’s it, that’s all there is to it.

Now you may believe that a moral system depends on a belief in God, that the two are inseparable. I don’t. In fact, I’d argue that a TRUE moral code should be universal and as a result completely detached from any sort of theistic belief.

For example:

Murder is wrong because I don’t have the right to deprive another human being of their life.

Theft is wrong because I don’t have the right to property or services that I did not earn.

See how easy that is? No God, no higher power, no threat of punishment involved. That’s what morality is about.

Atheists believe that the world around us is all we’ve got and all we’ll ever get and as a result we owe it to ourselves and our descendants to make it as good a place as possible.

That means weeding out the narrow minded bigots who would hate and destroy rather than love and create.

Any “Christian” here who claims otherwise does not believe in freedom of religion, for you are forcing your religion on the children of the united states. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Keep your holy delusions to yourselves.

I didn’t really care about the pledge and honestly don’t think it had any influence on me as a child but forcing a body of people to be required to say something they don’t believe in is silly. If I got in trouble as a kid for not saying it I’d just be that more defiant about it.

Eh, so thats my two cents. Doesn’t say exactly what I want it too but whatever.

Alas, your children have you there — during their times of despair & fear & weakness – to reassure them that…there is no point to life, no higher moral code, no purpose beyond themselves, no nothing — just a big black meaningless empty void of darkness — their consciousness/their life in fact is a cosmic fart, a random congealing of galactic snot matter.

And why the f*&ck would you treat everyone as any equal? Are you retarded? If you don’t believe in God, then you don’t believe that every one is equal before God — so where does the equality come into it? Because people are not equally intelligent (to wit, read your comment), people are not equally talented, people are not equally anything if you remove the ultimate judge. Is this something that you do simply because your a nice guy? Like, “Look I’m an aethesist, so I don’t “believe” in any actual equality, but I don’t want to appear to be an asshole, so I’m make doubly certain that I say that I treat everyone as my equal.”

Its been fun slumm’in it Leo.