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	<title>Comments on: Economy To Go From Bad To Worse?</title>
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	<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/</link>
	<description>Big Teeth. Huge Ass. Surprisingly Reasonable.</description>
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		<title>By: Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Unemployment Filings Reached 573,000 Last Week</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430378</link>
		<dc:creator>Donklephant &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Unemployment Filings Reached 573,000 Last Week</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 14:54:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430378</guid>
		<description>[...] that with the news that Obama&#8217;s administration is extremely worried that things will get much worse before they get better and you have the makings of a perfect economic storm that only massive government spending can [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] that with the news that Obama&#8217;s administration is extremely worried that things will get much worse before they get better and you have the makings of a perfect economic storm that only massive government spending can [...]</p>
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		<title>By: L</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430047</link>
		<dc:creator>L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 22:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430047</guid>
		<description>blackout,

Fair enough, I was interested in pointing out the irrelevancy of Jimmy&#039;s citation of the study and quote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>blackout,</p>
<p>Fair enough, I was interested in pointing out the irrelevancy of Jimmy&#8217;s citation of the study and quote.</p>
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		<title>By: blackoutyears</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430036</link>
		<dc:creator>blackoutyears</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430036</guid>
		<description>L, you&#039;re assuming that I&#039;m seeking a response to the study in the context of the current crisis, which I&#039;m not. I&#039;m simply interested in a response on the merits of the study itself, not its applicability now. I&#039;ll let Jimmy assert those tenuous connections himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>L, you&#8217;re assuming that I&#8217;m seeking a response to the study in the context of the current crisis, which I&#8217;m not. I&#8217;m simply interested in a response on the merits of the study itself, not its applicability now. I&#8217;ll let Jimmy assert those tenuous connections himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Gardner</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430033</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:14:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430033</guid>
		<description>Jimmy,

The reason the New Deal started not working is Roosevelt tried to balance the budget again. It wasn&#039;t until WWII rolled around that our country was truly pulled back up out of a Depression.

In other words, Obama&#039;s plan can work...he just has to be bold about it and not be afraid to deficit spend.

Also, to answer your question about Communism: NO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jimmy,</p>
<p>The reason the New Deal started not working is Roosevelt tried to balance the budget again. It wasn&#8217;t until WWII rolled around that our country was truly pulled back up out of a Depression.</p>
<p>In other words, Obama&#8217;s plan can work&#8230;he just has to be bold about it and not be afraid to deficit spend.</p>
<p>Also, to answer your question about Communism: NO.</p>
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		<title>By: L</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430011</link>
		<dc:creator>L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:25:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430011</guid>
		<description>A close look at Cole&#039;s study will show that no response is necessary.  The study does not make the case that the New Deal in its entirety extended the Great Depression (i.e. specific aspects like government spending are not the culprit) but that in fact the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) was the culprit.  This is irrelevant in attacking Obama&#039;s policies, since he has proposed nothing like the NIRA, which permitted high collusion among industries (as well as the National Relations Act which increased union membership).  His stimulus package is being debated by economists not because it might extend a recession but because it might be inefficient and impose higher costs on future generations than the benefits we derive from it now.

Also, Obama has decided not to repeal the Bush tax cuts, so perhaps he is getting on the right path Jimmy?  I would agree with you that we should put less emphasis on taxing incomes and savings, but do you agree that higher consumption taxes should be put in place?  If not, what do you propose?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A close look at Cole&#8217;s study will show that no response is necessary.  The study does not make the case that the New Deal in its entirety extended the Great Depression (i.e. specific aspects like government spending are not the culprit) but that in fact the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA) was the culprit.  This is irrelevant in attacking Obama&#8217;s policies, since he has proposed nothing like the NIRA, which permitted high collusion among industries (as well as the National Relations Act which increased union membership).  His stimulus package is being debated by economists not because it might extend a recession but because it might be inefficient and impose higher costs on future generations than the benefits we derive from it now.</p>
<p>Also, Obama has decided not to repeal the Bush tax cuts, so perhaps he is getting on the right path Jimmy?  I would agree with you that we should put less emphasis on taxing incomes and savings, but do you agree that higher consumption taxes should be put in place?  If not, what do you propose?</p>
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		<title>By: blackoutyears</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430009</link>
		<dc:creator>blackoutyears</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:34:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430009</guid>
		<description>A friend sent me the UCLA study link back in October and it&#039;s truly interesting. Recommended reading keeping in mind that this is fast becoming a meme on the Right and is often swallowed bones and all by FDR haters (distinguished from FDR skeptics). I have yet to find a detailed response/rebuttal to the study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A friend sent me the UCLA study link back in October and it&#8217;s truly interesting. Recommended reading keeping in mind that this is fast becoming a meme on the Right and is often swallowed bones and all by FDR haters (distinguished from FDR skeptics). I have yet to find a detailed response/rebuttal to the study.</p>
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		<title>By: user212</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430007</link>
		<dc:creator>user212</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430007</guid>
		<description>The revisionist case for the New Deal having dragged out the Depression is largely discredited in serious circles.  

The New Deal is very poorly understood by people today as many of its achievements and efforts are no longer around.  The NRA and the WPA in particular.  

Another thing to remember about the 1930&#039;s depression is the dust bowl and the associated declines in agricultural production and employment, prompting migration to cities, particularly in the west, thereby adding greater pressures to their economies.

Finally it should be noted that the 1937 slump is nearly universally blamed on the attempt to retract from some of the New Deal policies to satisfy political critics.

Do your own research but beware of new-fangled hype that all seems to agree.  There are literally decades of scholarship on the New Deal and evidence from dozens of other such cases here and in other countries that all consistently point to New Deal-style remedies being effective against a severe economic downturn.

If you think about it from a high, general level it is kind of obvious, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The revisionist case for the New Deal having dragged out the Depression is largely discredited in serious circles.  </p>
<p>The New Deal is very poorly understood by people today as many of its achievements and efforts are no longer around.  The NRA and the WPA in particular.  </p>
<p>Another thing to remember about the 1930&#8242;s depression is the dust bowl and the associated declines in agricultural production and employment, prompting migration to cities, particularly in the west, thereby adding greater pressures to their economies.</p>
<p>Finally it should be noted that the 1937 slump is nearly universally blamed on the attempt to retract from some of the New Deal policies to satisfy political critics.</p>
<p>Do your own research but beware of new-fangled hype that all seems to agree.  There are literally decades of scholarship on the New Deal and evidence from dozens of other such cases here and in other countries that all consistently point to New Deal-style remedies being effective against a severe economic downturn.</p>
<p>If you think about it from a high, general level it is kind of obvious, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Jimmy the Dhimmi</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-430003</link>
		<dc:creator>Jimmy the Dhimmi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-430003</guid>
		<description>If Communist China has decided to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Money/Story/STIStory_312280.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;cut corporate income and business taxes&lt;/a&gt;, in order to help the economy, but Obama refuses to do so, does that mean we are more communist than they are?  Are they, perhaps, getting it wrong where Obama is getting it right?

Oh, and by some accounts Roosevelt&#039;s New Deal &lt;a&gt;prolonged the great depression by 7 years.&lt;/a&gt;  From UCLA professor Howard Cole:  

&lt;em&gt;&quot;&quot;The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes,&quot; Cole said. &quot;Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened.&quot;&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Communist China has decided to <a href="http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Money/Story/STIStory_312280.html" >cut corporate income and business taxes</a>, in order to help the economy, but Obama refuses to do so, does that mean we are more communist than they are?  Are they, perhaps, getting it wrong where Obama is getting it right?</p>
<p>Oh, and by some accounts Roosevelt&#8217;s New Deal <a>prolonged the great depression by 7 years.</a>  From UCLA professor Howard Cole:  </p>
<p><em>&#8220;&#8221;The fact that the Depression dragged on for years convinced generations of economists and policy-makers that capitalism could not be trusted to recover from depressions and that significant government intervention was required to achieve good outcomes,&#8221; Cole said. &#8220;Ironically, our work shows that the recovery would have been very rapid had the government not intervened.&#8221;</em></p>
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		<title>By: kranky kritter</title>
		<link>http://donklephant.com/2008/12/11/economy-to-go-from-bad-to-worse/comment-page-1/#comment-429999</link>
		<dc:creator>kranky kritter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:48:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://donklephant.com/?p=11942#comment-429999</guid>
		<description>Folks who have been hoping the worst was over don&#039;t get the notions of ripples and dominoes very well, do they? The giant stock market retraction won&#039;t finish rippling through for awhile. Colleges with endowments, state governments, and folks near retirement age are all sucking serious wind. All these folks will adjust by spending less of goods and services. That will be the next ripple. All the businesses that sell good and services to state gov&#039;ts, colleges, and retirees. We will see a host of struggling retail enterprises fold in January through March. If you aren&#039;t #1 or #2 in your category even though you spent monet trying to be #1 ior #2, you&#039;re done for. Lots of independent retailers and small businesses will crash, too.

The one positive that I can see is that at least so far, folks haven&#039;t figured out better options to buying US gov&#039;t bonds and bills. Bills offering close to 0% interest are selling./ This means that the gov&#039;t price for borrowing is nil.

Interesting note: today&#039;s unscientific reader CNN poll on what the gov&#039;t should do reports that 36% want the gov&#039;t to give them another check, 26% say &quot;stop spending,&quot; and 24% want spending on roads and bridges.

I am in  favor of government spending that focuses on improving, updating, and modernizing our national infrastructure. In particular, we ought to focus on things that would need to be addressed sooner or later anyway, like the national electrical grid and communications, and updating schools, roads, bridges, and so on.

I think a direct refund to taxpayers, while a welcome relief to some individuals, would not encourage economic growth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks who have been hoping the worst was over don&#8217;t get the notions of ripples and dominoes very well, do they? The giant stock market retraction won&#8217;t finish rippling through for awhile. Colleges with endowments, state governments, and folks near retirement age are all sucking serious wind. All these folks will adjust by spending less of goods and services. That will be the next ripple. All the businesses that sell good and services to state gov&#8217;ts, colleges, and retirees. We will see a host of struggling retail enterprises fold in January through March. If you aren&#8217;t #1 or #2 in your category even though you spent monet trying to be #1 ior #2, you&#8217;re done for. Lots of independent retailers and small businesses will crash, too.</p>
<p>The one positive that I can see is that at least so far, folks haven&#8217;t figured out better options to buying US gov&#8217;t bonds and bills. Bills offering close to 0% interest are selling./ This means that the gov&#8217;t price for borrowing is nil.</p>
<p>Interesting note: today&#8217;s unscientific reader CNN poll on what the gov&#8217;t should do reports that 36% want the gov&#8217;t to give them another check, 26% say &#8220;stop spending,&#8221; and 24% want spending on roads and bridges.</p>
<p>I am in  favor of government spending that focuses on improving, updating, and modernizing our national infrastructure. In particular, we ought to focus on things that would need to be addressed sooner or later anyway, like the national electrical grid and communications, and updating schools, roads, bridges, and so on.</p>
<p>I think a direct refund to taxpayers, while a welcome relief to some individuals, would not encourage economic growth.</p>
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